ojai news at The Ojai Post :: blog, newspaper, events in Ojai, California

Raymond,

You have said you have trouble evaluating whether Naomi Wolf is paranoid or perceptive. I was not able to listen to the entire interview because I find her remarks and her manner obviously disturbed and irrational. However, I was able to listen far enough to hear her say that "a coup" has already taken place in this country, beginning October 1. In trying to evaluate the credibility of this claim, I wonder if we should consider who agrees that a coup has already taken place?

I am asking you, Raymond, this question directly, since you have posted this video and raised this question. To your knowledge, do any of the following individuals agree that a coup has occurred in this country beginning October 1 and that we are now a closed society?

Dennnis Kucinich
Ralph Nader
Michael Moore
Bill Maher
Al Gore
Jesse Jackson
Arianna Huffington
Hillary Clinton

These are all people of recognizably liberal or progressive persuasion, and not known for being afraid to speak their mind. To your knowledge, do any of them agree with Naomi Wolf that a coup has already occurred and we now live in a closed society?

I think that is a fair question that David poses to Raymond, and I look forward to his response.

However, I also think it is important to watch the whole video interview, from beginning to end. Naomi Wolf is a credible writer. I can understand why she appears quite emotional in this interview.

On a related note, check this out:

New, Controversial FBI Guidelines Go Into Effect
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/10/04-2

We live in a world where scientists state that 1 in 4 mammals faces extinction. With the possible exception of Dennis Kucinich and Ralph Nader, none of the people on the list in Comment #1, none of the presidential candidates... mention this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081006/ap_on_sc/sci_endangered_mammals

Note to Comment #3

I should have added, "To the best of my knowledge..."

Possibly the people on the above list have mentioned species extinction, in which case I gladly and with great relief, stand corrected.

PS
In case it wasn't clear, I was trying to say that even if many credible people fail to mention something, that alone is not sufficient reason to dismiss something.

Coup or not a coup?

In addition to Rep. Brad Sherman's disclosure that
Congress was threatened with martial law in the U.S. if the bailout
bill wasn't passed, Rep. Peter DeFazio was also against the bill.

DeFazio, a member of the Homeland Security Committee, has also been denied access to the Continuity of Government plans. And what does he have to say about this? "Maybe the people who think there's a conspiracy out there are right."

David,

I share your irritation with the 911 Truthers and most of their theories. However, I seriously disagree with your assessment of Naomi Wolf. It is possible that she is trying to puff her book, The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot, before this election. So with that in mind I will point you to the #1 and #2 most censored stories of 2006-2007 according to the publication Censored 2008: The Top 25 Censored Stories. It is a publication put out by journalism students from California State University at Sonoma for Project Censored. Project Censored has been publishing the top 25 most censored stories for over twenty years.

The following are excerpts from the #1 and #2 most censored stories in the latest edition of Censored. They deal with two bills passed into law and signed by Bush. These bills were passed into law in the last session of the Republican Congress after they lost their 12 year hold on both houses in 2006. These bills are not the stuff of conspiracy, they are very real and very frightening. I'm not saying that martial law is eminent, but I will say that should the current administration wish to try something like that, they have laid all of the requisite groundwork.

#1 No Habeas Corpus for “Any Person” Sources: Consortium, October 19, 2006 Title: “Who Is ‘Any Person’ in Tribunal Law?” Author: Robert Parry

With the approval of Congress and no outcry from corporate media, the Military Commissions Act (MCA) signed by Bush on October 17, 2006, ushered in military commission law for US citizens and non-citizens alike. While media, including a lead editorial in the New York Times October 19, have given false comfort that we, as American citizens, will not be the victims of the draconian measures legalized by this Act—such as military roundups and life-long detention with no rights or constitutional protections—Robert Parry points to text in the MCA that allows for the institution of a military alternative to the constitutional justice system for “any person” regardless of American citizenship. The MCA effectively does away with habeas corpus rights for “any person” arbitrarily deemed to be an “enemy of the state.” The judgment on who is deemed an “enemy combatant” is solely at the discretion of President Bush.
The oldest human right defined in the history of English-speaking civilization is the right to challenge governmental power of arrest and detention through the use of habeas corpus laws, considered to be the most critical parts of the Magna Carta which was signed by King John in 1215.

#2 Bush Moves Toward Martial Law
Toward Freedom , October 25, 2006
Title: “Bush Moves Toward Martial Law”
Author: Frank Morales

The John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007, which was quietly signed by Bush on October 17, 2006, the very same day that he signed the Military Commissions Act, allows the president to station military troops anywhere in the United States and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities, in order to “suppress public disorder.”
By revising the two-century-old Insurrection Act, the law in effect repeals the Posse Comitatus Act, which placed strict prohibitions on military involvement in domestic law enforcement. The 1878 Act reads, “Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.” As the only US criminal statute that outlaws military operations directed against the American people, it has been our best protection against tyranny enforced by martial law—the harsh system of rules that takes effect when the military takes control of the normal administration of justice. Historically martial law has been imposed by various governments during times of war or occupation to intensify control of populations in spite of heightened unrest. In modern times it is most commonly used by authoritarian governments to enforce unpopular rule.1
Section 333 of the Defense Authorization Act of 2007, entitled “Major public emergencies; interference with State and Federal law,” states that “the President may employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service—to restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States, the President determines that domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of (or “refuse” or “fail” in) maintaining public order—in order to suppress, in any State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.”
Thus an Act of Congress, superceding the Posse Comitatus Act, has paved the way toward a police state by granting the president unfettered legal authority to order federal troops onto the streets of America, directing military operations against the American people under the cover of “law enforcement.”

spk,

I think you mean not imminent (rather than eminent).

Look, you can't have it both ways. Either you think martial law is in the works or you don't. If you think it is in the works, let's pin it down and make a bet, o.k.? You tell me by what date you think martial law will be declared, and if it is, then I will stop posting here for six months. If it is not, then you must be quiet for six months. OK? I have already offered this deal to Jock, but he -- predictably -- ignored it.

David,

Simmer down brother. Think what your saying. I posted two bills that passed into law that are highly inflammatory. There is no arguing with the fact that these laws are now on the books. According to the Bush administration, you, me, and everyone we know do not currently enjoy Habeas Corpus if the executive decides this is so. Further, according to the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007, Posse Comitatus is repealed and the executive can use military forces as a police force within the country. If you are not worried about this incredible abuse of power, I may be over estimating your intelligence. Naomi Wolf is not a crank, she is merely pointing out obvious oversteps in power committed by the executive. We've seen this type of thing in the past, there is no reason to simply assume that it can't happen here. Especially when you consider the world-wide economic collapse we are witnessing.

Vigilance is not a bad thing at this moment in our history.

So... no prediction.... no bet.

I rest my case.

It would be a pity and a waste of time not to hear from either one of you for six long months!

Please, both of you, keep writing your great comments, even if you sometimes don't agree!

This is too serious a matter...calm down...

The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder
by Vincent Bugliosi

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vincent-bugliosi/the-prosecution-of-george_b_102427.html

..

Google Naomi Wolf and Dennis Kucinich. See what shows up.

Naomi Wolf's articles appear on the Huffington Post.

Dennis Kucinich on the Democrats’ Bailout Betrayal

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/06

It's 1934 and we are living in the Weimar Republic. The only way the facist repugs can hold on to power is to start a war... Bush and McFacist and their nazi pitbull Palin will start and support a war with Iran within the next 14 days. Like Hitler in the '30's, a big war is their only choice of action if they want to hold on to power. Pay attention to Naomi. She's right on.

the Coup took place in September 2001, when the Democrats went along with Rockefeller and Bush, and enslaved the American Media, enslaved the American people, and made war -- on behalf of the World Bankers, on the Middle East.

the reason that Obama, and Kuchinovich, and Pelosi and all the gangster Democrats are NOT asking to end the Federal Reserve and the control of the Government and Media by the Bankers (largely the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds) -- is that the Obamas and Kuchinovichs and Pelosis ad nauseum are the ones today ENFORCING THE ILLEGAL UNLAWFUL UNCONSTITUTIONAL TREASONOUS REGIME of the gangsters -- and will be the ones enforcing the military state come January.

that SECURITY STATE has been in place for decades -- all essential policies and programs are carried out secretly -- by Executive Order, legally, known as Executive Decision Directives.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Security+State+Executive+Decision+Directive

most of the policies, of the police state, were put in place at the instigation and leadership of the Feinsteins and Pelosis and Democrats ... the un-sung end of american freedom.

and we will not see Rockefeller's Obama, or Pelosi, or even Kuchinovich stating this, or opposing this ... as this is THEIR source of power ... and no one amongst the public, the willing sheeple, willing to make war on the planet and Mother Earth ... those who are speaking on these threads of the Ojai Post ... these who will be voting in November ... none of these nobodies will call Obama on it, or call Pelosi on it, or call Kuchinovich on it.

these are not people.

these are sheep.

Godwin! This thread's over.

David - relax. Go outside. It's a beautiful day. We agree on this one. You appear to be on a hair trigger today.

Dear Raymond, Suza, spk, Brenda, et al.,

Did any of you actually LISTEN to what Naomi Wolf actually said?

Here are some quotes, in case you did not:

"A coup has taken place."

"As of October 1 the coup has taken place -- it's confirmed."

"It's happened."

"The coup is here, rather than looming."

"An armed insurrection has taken place."

Now I invite you all, each of you, Raymond, Suza, spk, Brenda: Tell me, which of the following individuals agrees with this assessment?

Does Bill Moyer agree with it?

Does Dennic Kucinich agree with it?

Does Ralph Nader agree with it?

Does Michael Moore agree with it?

Does Bill Maher agree with it?

Does Arianna Huffington agree with it?

Does Jesse Jackson agree with it?

And if they don't -- THEN WHY THE HELL ARE ALL OF YOU DEFENDING THIS WOMAN??

(Note to spk: yes, i am on a hair trigger. When an otherwise reasonable woman like Suza compares a scientific report about species loss with the quotations given above, yes, it drives me a bit mad.)

Templar Twain,

Yes, at the end of the majority choosing to use the evil's money and be their slaves...we all, no matter our contribution to the evil, can heal and remember again how to respond to each other in kind.

Until then we are infact enslaved, and digging a deeper and deeper hole of self denial.

The more disfunctional our supply for need becomes; the less hope there is for freedom returning.

david-
i'm with you man.
there are so many blowhards and weak minded who post here either in the name of the good or the name of the evil that it pays to take long vacations and to take occasional pot-shots.
don't lose your determination.
you are more real and more tuned in than those you confront

David! Who are you? Where did you come from?

Hurry, get out while you can! This place will drive you mad. It isn't worth it, attempting to be reasonable. You're only trying to save about twelve people...

Divid Livid, betting is a form of competition. You are in the wrong arena. Go play some 1 on 1 basketball. Try some tennis or race someone around the track. You need to get back in your body and out of your mind.

Whatever happened to Kucinich's impeachment proceedings against GWB?

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=93581

OK, folks....... the time has come to assess Davy's Demerits.

First, for Naomi Wolf. In a 28-minute video, she claimed that a coup d'etat of the United States government occurred on October 1 of this year. She called it "an armed insurrection." She said, "It is confirmed." And, "The coup is no longer looming -- it has happened."

This is a Material and Demonstrable Misstatement of Fact so extreme as to require a new category to accommodate it. This is a Triple Whopper, equivalent to 8 of Davy's Demerits.

Naomi Wolf is not an Ojai Post Author, so the demerits cannot actually be levied against her. Raymond Powers, however, is the Author who posted her video, so he is potentially liable for her demerits. He did not actually endorse her views, but by giving her a forum here and implying that her statements might be plausible, he is partially liable. On these grounds, he is assessed a Double Whopper, equal to 4 demerits.

Sadly, we must also include Suza in this mix. Ordinarily, demerits are not levied for mere comments. However, because she is a Post Author as well as a candidate for public office, Suza must be held to a higher standard. Her comment that Naomi Wolf's statements were somehow comparable in credibility to a scientific report about species loss cannot go unpenalized. For this she must be assessed a Ding, or one demerit. (Fortunately, she previously earned three Merit Points for Highly Commendable Statements of Truth and Wisdom, so her overall score stands at plus two.)

Goonngggg! Congratulations David! You have received your second gong. Score so far: David 2 gongs. Every one else: 0. I guess y'all are wondering "What makes Davey so special?" Ole Dave has once again showed the bitter determination to be the most self righteous commenter we have observed (this includes many, many other web sites). His childish demerit system is a laughable attempt to censor and control the commenters on the Ojai Post. What are you so afraid of Davey?It might be a good idea for you to become a tad more worldly. Visit some other places. You just may learn to be less uptight.

Congratulations and good luck with your high blood pressure and anxiety disorder.

Dear gong show,

As I have gone to some lengths to point out, the demerit system is not really designed for commenters. The Ojai Post has a statement of standards for commenters, and that is good enough for me (except in rare cases such as Suza's comment, as already explained). So please don't claim it is designed to censor commenters, since it is not designed for them at all.

What the Ojai Post lacks is any stated standard of journalistic integrity for its Authors. Tyler has said he prefers for any feedback for Authors to come from commenters. It is only to fill that gap that the demerit system has to exist. And it is not designed to censor Authors -- just to call them on demonstrable misstatements of fact.

So no demerits even for you, gong show.... although if you would like to post your views as an Author, then you would be eligible.

Dear gong show,

Upon further reflection, I think you may be right in one respect -- Davy's Demerits shoud not be applied to commenters even under special circumstances.

Therefore, Suza's Ding is hereby rescinded.

but Suzy is no ordinary commenter.
she be runnin fer mayah.
and she be in companie with kucinovich, pelosin y probama

suze needs to be held two a MUCHH hiya standard

there4, upon ferther reflexon, 2 demerits and 1 detritus

Yes Millennium, Ojai ~

Naomi Wolf's video "interview" sounds
correct... we have been watching this
coming for 8 years... incrementally...
but steadily... a new bid for total control
is unfolding in our midst.

But I am tempted to ask the question...
total control of what?

A society that is so complex, so
diverse, so conflicted, so unprepared
for the Transition that every human
person must go through on this planet...
a society on drugs... on every form of
pharmaceutical palliative that they can
possibly invent to drug us into
complacency and lethargy...
a society that is totally conditioned
to react with knee-jerk responses to
whatever stimulation we have been
trained to follow... a society that cannot
live within its means... a society that is
hyper-stimulated with most of the adults
suffering from arrested personalities...
a society in denial... a society with violent
pent-up frustrations forever on the verge
of rocketing into destructive outbursts
and rioting... a society with the classes
at war with each other.

Why would Bush or anyone else want to
bring total control over this seething mass
of desperate needy people?

Because god spoke to him?

Because he is channeling Hitler,
or Stalin, or Alexander the Great?

Because he is on drugs himself and
is merely being puppeted into whatever
actions the master puppeteers deem
necessary?

Because the behind-the-scenes conspiratorial
entities that everyone seems to be talking
about these days (yet again... always the
same names and the same complaints) are
moving the world into their vision of yet
another feudalism?

Because he can?

Because he was touched by the same
madness that seems to touch so many
in power... that madness that comes with
being in power that cannot depart once
the drug of power has been installed in
the depth of the human brain?

Because we-the-people have lost our
ability to steer ourselves into and out of
deep waters... because we have lost our
ability to steer ourselves out of troubled
waters... because we have lost our sense
of direction... our legitimate love of personal
freedom... because we are overworked...
over stressed... stressed out!!!!!!!

It is easy to galvanize a huge population
like America into doing very destructive
acts... against others... against itself...
it is very difficult to galvanize Americans
to act in concert for something that is
legitimately necessary and is the result
of careful and prudent thinking.

So I am curious where you think we can go?

I like the fact that you are not "rooted"...
like most of us are... into the complacent
habits of rooting ourselves for the false
security we think it gives us. I like your
thinking that there is some action we
could take that will get us out of this
iron gated cell... that iron gate is being
closed all around us... I can hear the
squeaking iron doors as they are shutting...
I can feel the oxygen being vacuumed
out of the air... I can smell that old fishy
smell that comes with things being wrong
and that wrongness being wrapped in
yesterdays newspaper... I can feel that
old feeling of freedom being slipped from
the fingers.

So where do think "we can go", Millennium?

"that old feeling of freedom".
say more

can it be that there is no one in charge?
no one who knows how to steer the global ship of our markets?
are we all rip van winkles finally waking up
in the back of an automobile which has no driver?
You just might query yourself:
How did this happen?

http://www.themoneymeltdown.com/

London -- Biggest FTSE Fall For 20 Years, Prime Minister calls for "calm and reason".

"2009 Will Be A Very Very Tough Year"

The FTSE 100 index of leading UK shares has suffered its biggest one-day fall since the 1987 crash amid the deepening global financial crisis.

At one stage, the FTSE dropped nearly 9%.

It closed down 391.1 points, or 7.85%, at 4589.2, wiping more than £93bn off the value of top firms.

Germany's DAX was down 7.1% and France's CAC-40 closed 9% lower.

The nightmare was not just suffered in Europe, as markets were also soundly hit in the US and Asia.

The Dow Jones industrial average of leading US stocks fell below the 10,000 mark for the first time in four years!

The sharp drop came amid growing fears that the global financial crisis may be deeper than any in modern history.

The Dow Jones fell around 4% in early trading.

Davey - once again, your demerits system is not serving you or anyone else well. You "debunk" Ms. Wolf by listing a fairly random assortment of people who you claim have not stated that a coup has already occurred. That is a logical fallacy of the first order, as Suza so rightly points out. You meanwhile have steadfastly refused to engage in the actual debate raised.

Arguably, the "coup" occurred back in 2005 when Bush "leaked" his warrantless wiretapping program. That was a situation where this administration simply asserted that the Constitution does not apply to the executive and can be violated by fiat. (In case you forget, for most people a "coup" occurs when authority is usurped by a cabal who is in power or takes power, in defiance of the fundamental law of the land. That has occurred many times with the Bush administration's abrogations of power, although I think it was the warrantless wiretapping that was first asserted in a "coup" fashion, as an open assertion of authority in defiance of the Constitution.)

As you have done before, you assert your own definition of terms, and then fault others for not meeting your definition. That's a no no. If you feel that the Bush administration's assertions of extraconstitutional authority and its steps paving the way to impose martial law should it choose to do so are unproblematic, seems to me that's a debate worth having. Give some facts and reason supporting your position. We'll all sleep better if you are right.

But burying your head in the sand and asking us to do the same with your schoolyard "demerits" doesn't get me there.

aye, who's "behind the wheel", and why have North Americans for eight years refused to even discuss the subject? [that a worldwide call for ethics, an end of security-state-aristrocrazy violence, can be sounded? that knowledge and decision-making can be done in the open, involving all people to the extent that they are able and willing?]

or as 'Newly Arrived' so fully cogently inquires, where CAN we go [how can we grow] from our diseased bodies? sickly-programmed brains? lost and fragmented minds? to work together for the first time, globally. acknowledging that the Jews are not the problem, the Christians are not the problem, the Islamic cultures are not the problem, nor the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Taoists, the Shinto, the Yoruba, Way of Lukumi, nor any.

THEY ARE THE ANSWER! THEY ARE THE ONES, TOGETHER, WHO ARE SOLVING THE PROBLEM, ENDING THE VIOLENCE. ENDING THE GENOCIDE AGAINST THE NATIVE AND ABORIGINAL PEOPLES. ENDING THE CULTURE OF VIOLENCE AND PREDATION ON WOMEN AND CHILDREN. ENDING THE CORPORATE WORLD WAR AGAINST MOTHER EARTH -- WHOSE RIVERS AND WETLANDS AND FORESTS AND RAINFORESTS AND OCEANS, ALL LIFE, HAS BEEN EXTINGUISHED 95 PERCENT!

where, in beaten and drugged America, is the spirit of health and integrity, love of self and community and nature, to be found?

when will we identify our own demons, find self respect -- that we can become judges of ethics, for stewardship, non-violence, worldwide? ending the us against them programming, acting from knowledge, the realm of spirit, in US WITH THEM, and thus guaranteeing GLOBAL FREEDOM, GLOBAL SAFETY, GLOBAL RESPECT to all peoples of every culture.

and, on that subject of [UK/Euro Banker/Monarchy] security state privilege and decision-making courtesy the US Military government, here is the correct link, corrected keywords, viz. National Security Decision Directive,
alluded to above:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=National+Security+Decision+Directive

Anonymous #34

There are not too many people on this planet who would consider Bill Moyer, Dennis Kucinich, Ralph Nader, Michael Moore, Bill Maher, Al Gore, Jesse Jackson, and Arianna Huffington a "fairly random assortment of people." To me they represent a Who's Who of progressive, aware people unafraid to speak their mind. For you to call them a random assortment shows how truly isolated and extreme your perspective is.

As for Naomi Wolf, your rendition of events totally contradicts hers. The coup she was referring to occurred on October 1, six days ago. It was, in her words, "an armed insurrection." I am only addressing that scenario, not some other that you may be concerned about.

By any reasonable definition of the word coup -- if in fact it occurred and nobody happened to notice except Naomi Wolf -- you may be sure that no election will take place four weeks from today.

So, since you are evidently impervious to reason, we will let that be the test, o.k.? If there is an election, then there was no coup. If there is no election, then you and Naomi are right, and I will be happy to be relieved of the burden of assigning demerits for demonstrable misstatements of fact.

davey: 'Every argument is a competition for attention". I'm afraid you entirely missed the point on #34's evisceration of your credulous demerit system. You argue from the rubble of your perspective.

That is the problem Templar, there is no one competent at the wheel, the midwife is not yet old enough nor up to the complexity of the task and those of us who have some knowledge get trapped in non-sequitars, stumbling in the dark, struggling for light on the path. Poor Khrisnamurti, if only Annie had been wiser.

The sad thing about those who are aware and who have enlightened themselves with regard to the horrific deeds of the elitists and their political henchmen, those who have awakened to realize that there are terrible criminal minds amongst our leadership in the USA & Great Britain, those who speak out against the wrongful deeds that these powerful few have committed against mankind and our Mother Earth, is that, other than the internet, they have little voice in a world which is totally manipulated by the untruthful, propaganda filled Media.  We can only try to convince by person to person contact others of the mega-distortion of the truth by the news agencies.
 
Earlier I commented on my dreams concerning the prepared concentration camps.  I think I may have given the wrong impression that I did not think these things would or could come into being.  I have no doubt whatsoever that the NAZI mentality of the dark leadership of the world would have any problem implementing such a dire plan.
 
The dark money forces control the local police, the sheriff's department, the courts and judges, FEMA, CDC, the military, National Guard, Border Patrol, FBI, NSA, CIA etc.  The only way we can change things to keep this horrible state that is on the horizon from taking place is to contact our neighbors one by one, tell them our fears and begin to sway them away from such a move.  After all, they are human beings with families and lives of their own...at least most of them.  But they have all been brainwashed into believing propaganda crammed down their throats by the media that simply is not true.  We must keep presenting the facts via the internet and through face to face contact until we all can walk through this evolutionary change together.

it amazes me that so many folk attack you, when you make eminent sense to mee and even manage to instill some humor.
i will hold up your balls.
doncha worry
you betcha...

"evisceration"
Evan- can you refer this person to a NVCC?

Two philosophers were sitting at a restaurant, discussing whether or
not there was a difference between misfortune and disaster.

"There is most certainly a difference," said one. "If the cook suddenly died and we couldn't have our dinner, that would be a misfortune, but certainly not a disaster. On the other hand, if a cruise ship carrying the Congress were to sink in the middle of the ocean, that would be a disaster, but by no stretch of the imagination would it be a misfortune."

A couple people have asked about my silence on this thread since I posted it. I also, put the same response on my latest post to honor someone who asked me the same there.

I poated Paranoid or Perceptive? to illicit a conversation amongst the post readers. I personally have no comments or responses to what people have written. I choose to be mindful and respectful of everyones opinions, look at what is "happening" in the world and kow the the future is unpredictable. There are probabilities and possibilities. My intention was to create a platform for discussion which I feel I succeeded at.

Love is the Center that holds. For approximately 140,000 years, we, femina sapiens (not homo sapiens) was the womam focal Love culture that held together in the midst of other cultures and species.

Homo sapiens, fueled by jealously of womam's birth and blood power, and hyped up with hunting and eating animals, gradually and steadily eroded the power of Love. The negative force is called Patriarchy and it modus operandi is war.

Without an understanding of who we are in an herstorical/his-storical contest/context, we will never escape the iron cage.

Love, grounded in herstory, is the only way out. It is the great restoration project.

Patriarcy has three branches: money, sex and power. The money branch is at present disintegrating with desparate attempts to save it. The question is asked: "what can we do?"

There are many fallacies operating which prevent clear perception or action. I want to talk about one which is now up front and center: money.

No one, not even economists that I admire, seem to understand the basic falsity. I am no fan of Roman Christianity, having been a monk and priest in this lifetime, but it retained a fundamental ethical and natural law when it banned usury. St. Thomas Aquinas, its greatest schoolman, said usury was based on an illusion; it created something out of nothing to give the appearance of something real. The truth of this is now being revealed, although mightily denied and massively suppressed.

Practically all of us are involved in this scam. Investors of all persuasions are divesting someone or something with this scheme. Speculation is the blowing up of a bubble and someone is always going to lose in the end. Interest, loans and debt enslave you to someone or something else.

Femina sapiens was destined to be free but patriarchy figured out a way to enslave everyone with the money debt system. Debt money is the root of almost all evil, it is one of the three triumviral branches.

You cannot see this or accept this if you are caught in it. I have extracted myself as much as possible from the money system and only now am I beginning to see my way clear. I have put my money in cash. I do not want my money to work for me, or to get something for nothing. I have only an interest free checking account to carry on business.

Finally after 68 years I am getting free of debt and slavery. I no longer owe anyone any money. I could go on and on with numerous personal examples and hard-knock anecdotes but time and space are too limited. The threat of martial law is about money, sex and power. It is easiest to follow the money to see the truth.

Naomi is speaking an emotional truth which is not irrational. She is speaking from her heart as a womam and we iron-headed patriarchs cannot and will not understand her. We nitpick in our stupidity because we have been cut off at the balls millenia ago from the primal Love Culture.

I do not know Naomi from Eve or Adam but I can feel in my womam's body that she is light years ahead of her detractors in intelligence. It's called emotional Love Intelligence. It's LQ, not IQ. Men and femen enablers are stupid; they don't see; they don't feel; they don't know.

I can only say what I say and do what I do. I don't eat meat. I don't enslave pets. I don't support this evil money system. I don't worship the Patriarchal God.

What do I do? I love as well and as much as I can. Love has an object. Love is primarly a She and secondarily a He. We've got to get that order right or we will perish. Equality of the sexes and evolutionary theory are patriarchal lies. But as long as you eat meat, keep pets and worship God=Money, you cannot see, you are blind, you are in slavery and your perception (the title of this thread) is not trustworthy.

I realize I am preaching but sometimes preaching is appropriate; depends on what you're preaching and what the context is. Go ahead, preach back to me. It doesn't offend me. I can discern the truth.

From what I know of Naomi, she is an intelligent womam and she cares about the state of the world. Patriarchs cannot love the world because they have separated themselves from it and placed their hopes in sky gods and heavenly dreams. I've been there and done that: it doesn't work. It leads to hell which is where our economy is heading.

The patriarchal God has been in charge now for some 5 or 6 thousands years. He cannot save anyone, not even himself. He knows only war. Do not give him any more power; switch to Love. Reconnect with the primal womam culture. Do not subscribe to Goddess worship either, since Goddess is only a female God. Find the orginal Eve, the primal Global Womam, the Divine Feminine. It's not what you think. Thinking will not work. Only Love works.

The merit/demerit system does not work either. It's just another patriarchal judgement based on some ego evaluation. The group psychosis system does not work either. The whole world can go to hell in a handbasket, as it appears to be doing, and if you are standing in truth, justice and love, that is all that matters. Numbers count for nothing except in the patriliary headgame.

The money collapse is an opportunity to get our feet on solid ground. It's a chance to see the truth and to face fear. It's a showdown, even a shootout and it happens within each consciousness. True, it's happening out there because it's happening in here.

I decided to vote after all. I'm voting for my own party, a party of one. No one can represent me. I have never met anyone who truly shared my deep views. I feel sorry for those who believe in a black man as the great white hope. Delusion.

Thanks for bringing this thread to light. It feels good for a man to speak like a womam.

David, before you go around accusing others of being isolated, extreme, and impervious to reason, consider:

On this morning's Democracy Now! broadcast, the deployment of the Third Brigade in the "homeland" was discussed, with Amy Goodman and Matthew Rothchild of the Progressive raising the alarm, and a colonel in charge of the program asserting that we have nothing to worry about.

Those are two progressive icons raising the same concerns you so quickly dismiss.

Amy Goodman then went on to broadcast an interview with Naomi Wolf herself on this very subject. Listen to that and tell us whether you think Amy Goodman is a credulous paranoiac.

On Thom Hartmann's program this morning, meanwhile, constitutional law scholar Bruce Fein, a Reagan administration conservative, was discussing his new book. It would be quite a leap to listen to what he had to say and conclude he is not very alarmed about the constitutional coup that has taken place under the Bush administration.

I can't say off the top of my head what all of your random assortment of people think about the Bush administration's coup, but you ought to read Dennis Kucinich's articles of impeachment if you believe that he is not alarmed about it. Those articles are replete with examples of usurpation of authority and extraconstitutional actions, the earmarks of a coup. I am also confident from speeches and articles I have seen over the last few years from Bill Moyers, Ralph Nader, Michael Moore and Jesse Jackson that all of them are similarly alarmed, and wide awake to the abuses of power of this administration.

You point to whether an election will occur as your proof of whether or not there has been a "coup". You need to study up. It is common for coup leaders to hold elections, which they rig to legitimize their rule. It is also not uncommon for coup leaders to leave power voluntarily, typically after having looted a country, often in favor of anointed successors installed by "election".

Ultimately, perhaps your problem is that you don't like the word "coup." Perhaps you think it too alarmist. Perhaps you are not ready to grapple with the idea that it could happen here, or indeed already has. But, when credible voice after voice has raised the alarm over the Bush administration's assertion of extraconstitutional powers, illegal actions and abuses, if not a "coup", what would you call it? This administration has been acting openly outside the bounds of the Constitution for some time. That is not a coup?

Whatever you want to call it, let me suggest that quibbling over labels is not productive. If you have a basis to share with us as to why we should not be alarmed and concerned, please share it.

Otherwise, consider: The Republican vice-Presidential candidate is openly accusing Barack Obama right now of "palling around with terrorists," to a crowd which responded with such cheerful sentiments as "kill him." She aspires to take power in the wake of an administration that has abrogated habeas corpus, and assumed the power to label anyone it wants as an "enemy combatant" and lock them away without a hearing for years. If Sarah Palin takes over for Bush-Cheney after an "election," and implements the Bush administration's extraconstitutional powers to lock away people she thinks are "terrorists," tell me: If not a coup, what would that be?

When will it be a coup for you?

Obviously, it was not a coup for you when the Bush administration unlawfully kidnapped Chinese Ughurs and held them incommunicado in Gitmo for six years. They finally were released when the Supreme Court ordered a hearing and the Bushies were forced to admit they had no reason to hold them. Perhaps you believe that the Bush administration's release of these innocents after six years, in response to a court order, is proof that there has been no "coup".

But: Is it possible that reasonable, informed people might conclude just the opposite?

Dear "To David,"

You are making me repeat myself, and it is getting tiresome.

I think the meaning of coup is clear.

I never said there is nothing to be concerned about. You keep changing the subject. I never said Bill Maher, Dennis Kucinich, Bill Moyer, et al, are not concerned about anything. Of course they are concerned. I have already repeated, I am only addressing Naomi Wolf's absurd statement that an armed insurrrction and coup d'etat occurred on october 1. If you don't know the meaning of those words, I can't help you.

I have already said, if you think there was a coup, then surely you must believe there will be no election. So that will be the test, o.k.?

Let's just leave it at that, o.k.? The proof is in the pudding.

I have long admired Naomi Wolf, but I just can’t stick with her on this one. My gut feeling is that she has been in the trenches a bit too long fighting the good fight and, like a prosecutor or detective who believes in the guilt of a defendant can often unknowingly view evidence in a biased way, she is analyzing events in a way that support her hypothesis (of which she has written an entire book on).

Just how an army of 3,000 or so troops could impose martial law on a country the size of ours is far-fetched to say the least. Think about this logistically. Also, the fact that this Third Brigade is here a month before one of the most emotionally, racially and politically charged elections doesn’t necessarily have to precede some nefarious government plot – does it? I know large companies in major cities have Emergency Response contingency plans for election week. A whole host of incidents could very well take place in which an expansion of our regular police force would be necessary – terrorist incidents, domestic riots, etc.

George Bush and Dick Cheney are mass murderers, terrorists and have all but destroyed the essence of what this country is supposed to be based on and comprised of. Civil rights have been eroded beyond measure. They should be held accountable. But to say they have staged a “coup” and martial law is underway (based on the evidence she gave in her interview anyway) is stretching her hypothesis to its breaking point.

LTOR, I sense some disconnect in your analysis, ala Wavey Davey. On the one hand, you acknowledge what has happened over the last eight years with Bush-Cheney. On the other, you say it has not risen to the level of a "coup" and "martial law."

I don't dispute that necessarily. But instead of denying there has been a "coup" and stopping there, can you give us a better description of the state of affairs we find ourselves in? If Naomi Wolf has failed in finding the right descriptors, what can you or Wavey Davey offer us that might be more apt? What exactly have these "mass murderers, terrorists" and "destroyers" of this country (all apt descriptors IMHO) perpetrated on this country?

Seems to me "coup" is not far off, but we certainly all could be better served by a more apt analysis that truly captures the state of affairs we find ourselves in.

Help us out here LTOR!

Astounding! and 'Auspicious'!!

Not sure whether this prophecy reading, taken yesterday, applies simply to Cheney and Bush, Pelosi and the entire US Congress, or to Rockefeller and the Rothschilds ... or to all the Media, the Monarchists and Secret Government, the petrochemical death monster, the Aerospace-Military Industry, the 'Church' guilds running them, and all participants in the corporate war machine.

I merely opened the book, the I-Ching, the Book of Changes, and closed my eyes, spun it around a few times, and opened it. It open to Hexagram 21, Shi Ho!

The END of the Fifth Night is upon us!! Morning of the Sixth Day arrives in November!!!

~~~~~~

Shi Ho Hexagram Reading

Above Fire, Brightness
Below Thunder and Awakening

The first line undivided shows the criminals with their feet in the stocks and deprived of their toes. It will be advantageous at this time for the people to apply the legal system to end the evil. This is most auspicious.

Line two, divided, shows a mouth biting through soft flesh, and going on to bite through the nose. We must allow no error in judgement.

Line three, divided, shows the mouth gnawing old dried flesh, and meeting with what is disagreeable. This will be occasion for many small regrets, but the people will persevere and make no great errors.

Line four, undivided, shows the mouth gnawing through the dried flesh all the way to the bone, and getting pledges of arrows and money. It will be advantageous for the people to realize the difficulty of our task and to be firm -- in which case we will bring about good fortune for all.

Line five, divided, shows the gnawing at the old dried flesh, and finding the yellow gold. The people must be firm and correct, realising the peril that faces us. There must be no error here.

Line 6, undivided, shows the criminals wearing the Kang or Cangue, and deprived of their ears. The evil has been revealed.

~~~~~~

This hexagram is thought of as representing a mouth. The yang line in the fourth place is something through which the teeth are biting. When this something has been bitten through, the mouth will be closed, obstacles cleared away and problems resolved.

Shi Ho signifies successful progress. It is most advantageous to seek justice.

Political union is brought about by biting through the intervening obstacles and the hexagram indicates successful progress. Yang and yin lines are equally divided in the figure. Thunder and movement are denoted by the lower trigram, brightness and intelligence by the upper.

Thunder and lightening are the manifestation of the sudden release of built-up tensions in nature. A yin line occupies the fifth place, the place of the ruler. Although this not its proper position, it is advantageous at this time for the processes of law.

Thunder and lightening are the symbol of biting through. The Sages of old, therefore, framed the laws with care, making the punishment fit the crime.

Line 1

His feet are locked in the stocks. His toes are gone. No reproach.

The interpretation of this line has provoked much disagreement among Chinese scholars. The first and sixth lines are considered to represent the man who suffers punishment, the rest represent whose who impose the penalties. For western readers the stocks is only a mild form of punishment and they have interpreted ‘his toes are gone’ as meaning the toes are hidden by the wooden beam of the stocks. On the other hand, cutting off a man’s toes was a specific Chinese punishment, and the penalty described here may be a rather more severe one than is generally supposed. But no matter whether the punishment is light or severe, this line indicates plainly that it is fully justified.

Line 2

Biting through the tender meat his nose is gone. No reproach.

Again this line is open to different interpretations. Some commentators translate it as meaning that the subject is so concerned to see justice done that he ‘cuts off his nose to spite his own face.’ Others merely see the nose hidden by the depth of the meat into which he has bitten, meaning that he loses sight of clemency in his pursuit of the wrong-doer. Again, however, it is worth remembering that cutting off a felon’s nose is a specific punishment. The verse makes it clear that, although this may be too severe a penalty, it is nevertheless without blame.

Line 3

Biting through the dried meat he injures himself. There is some humiliation but no reproach.

Here the punishment is being carried out by someone without sufficient power and authority. In performing this he does harm to himself. However, since the punishment was necessary, and he was performing his duty, he will soon recover and will not be blamed.

Line 4

Biting through dried gristle and bone he receives the arrows demanded. It is advantageous to realize the difficulties for perseverance brings good fortune.

In a civil law case in ancient China, it was customary for the litigants to bring to court a bundle of arrows. The case is a hard one to judge, and it is only by recognizing all the difficulties involved that one can find the persistence to reach a just conclusion.

Line 5

Biting through dried lean meat, the Court receives the gold required. Aware of danger the Judges persevere without reproach.

In a criminal proceeding it was customary for the litigants to deposit a sum of gold before the hearing. The fifth line represents the ‘lord of judgement.’ In his powerful position he is inclined to be lenient. Although the case is a difficult one, it is not too difficult. If the judge remains conscious of the dangers involved in making the wrong decision, his judgement will be just. The yellow of gold is the colour of correctness in the middle way.

Line 6

His neck is locked in the wooden cangue. His ears are gone. Misfortune for evil.

Deaf to good counsel the felon is locked in the great block of the cangue (neck block) which he must carry about his neck until his crime has been expiated. It may even be that he has suffered the severest punishment of having his ears cut off.

Anonymous, all I am saying is this: I think we all agree that Bush-Cheney have crapped all over the Constitution, have made a mockery of our notions of civil rights, check-and-balances, international diplomacy, moral decency, etc., have helped to facilitate (whether by inaction or by implicit involvement) the absolute and wholesale plunder of this country’s economic lifeblood and have made you, me and future generations astronomically less safe (economically, psychologically, spiritually and physically) in the coming years. Of course, we could go on and on and on…..

However, words matter. Like David, I have to take issue with not just the words Naomi Wolf is using (a coup d’etat is something very, very specific) but also her implied message – that we now live in a “closed”, fascist society AS OF October 1st . We can have a healthy debate about how dire our futures are or how our collective and old-fashioned notions about our precious civil liberties are now just in-denial-wishful-thinking….and maybe even how some group (or cabal) of people out there are benefitting grotesquely from what has just happened with our economy, and so forth…fair enough. But to say we have just undergone a “coup” or anything like it is far-fetched, somewhat ludicrous and only serves to water down her very powerful arguments. I have been to South America several times and know quite a few people who know EXACTLY what a coup d’etat is. And isn’t. That’s all.

Come on people, didn't you notice that this thread ended when the Brenda/Vicki/Paula/Dave/Mark troll Godwin'ed way back in comment #15, to say nothing of MT's free verse, inane ramblings. Give it a rest already. We'll know soon enough if these scumbags in the Bush Administration are going to try anything. Their entire free market, Friedman-economics ideology has collapsed just like the Soviet Union back in 1991. Now, we have a lot of work to do.
Naomi Klein recently gave a lecture at Chicago University, the seat of Friedman economics, and Democracy Now has it as a podcast. I highly recommend it for people who would like to understand what's happening with regard to economics and the collapse. The fact is, the utter bullshit of the last thirty years is coming to a close. The viagra is giving out on the old trickle-down machine. If the administration wants to try violence here in the US to maintain power, they are going to be very surprised by the resistance they'll receive. I don't think they have the balls to try it anyway, but if they do so be it. They won't last long and then they will be banished from power forever. Actually, that might be the best way to be rid of these idiots once and for all, but I digress.
Say this with me: "Obama is going to win this election." Okay, now we need to focus on dismantling everything they've done in the last thirty years. Progressives need to be ready with "other ideas lying around."(listen to Naomi Klein and you'll get the quote.) It's time to restart the 21st century. We need to focus on big problems and we need to heal the wounds from all the exploitation. We need to hold the criminals responsible and show the world that we understand the magnitude of our mistakes. It's a huge job. I hope we're up to it; it will take all of us.

Give it a rest already.

Sorry?

you're right. Give it a rest is too strong.

Although this financial situation bad as far as credit goes it is noteworthy that the best safe haven for investors is still the US. The practice of securing loans at 30 to 1 will no longer be tolerated and once these corrections are made things will straighten out. Some serious readjustment is happening but if the government does not raise taxes in two to three years I think you will see the economy rebound. Especially if we begin to become more energy independent.

Thanks SPK - just checking to see if Tyler appointed you Thread Monitor while I was away... :)

Downing St. Emergency Summit to continue "for some time."

LONDON (SkyCast) - A top level meeting to discuss ways of stabilising the UK's financial roller coaster is taking place at Downing Street.

The Crown is advising Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling who are holding talks with the governor of the Bank of England, Mervyn King, and the chairman of the Financial Services Authority, Lord Turner of Ecchinswell.

A spokesman for the Prime Minister denied it was a crisis meeting, saying it had been scheduled for days.

The participants will discuss "ongoing action" aimed at "moderating and postponing" the UK-wide financial market crash.

The meeting comes at the end of a traumatic day for most banks in which Royal Bank of Scotland (LSE: RBS.L - news) and Barclays (LSE: BARC.L - news) both felt obliged to deny the capital injections they had requested from the government.

The share prices of Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS (LSE: HBOS.L - news) has been especially hard hit today, with the former shedding 41% of its value in a single day while HBOS's share price has fallen 38% to below £1.

Thanks Millenium for posting the Bugliosi article. Naomi notes that Bugliosi is taking one of the paths that is necessary to take back this country. The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder demonstrates how we can prosecute the Bush cohorts on the state and even county level.

People who want to see justice done should support the Bugliosi talk and book signing on Oct. 10 at 7PM.It's at 3451 Foothill Rd. Ventura. For more info read todays VCReporter or call me at 640-3650.

Bank of China buys into Rothschild bank

BEIJING: Bank of China Ltd. is buying a stake in French bank LCF Rothschild and says the two will develop private banking and asset-management services for China's newly rich.

China's fast-growing banking industry is eager to expand its foreign ties, and the latest deal announced late Thursday came despite industry turmoil following the failure of Wall Street house Lehman Brothers.

Bank of China said it will buy a 20 percent stake in La Compagnie Financiere Edmond de Rothschild for 236.3 million euros (US$340 million) and the two will develop private banking and asset-management services.

"This partnership forms part of Bank of China's global development strategy," Bank of China chairman Xiao Gang said in a statement. "We expect to further strengthen our asset management operations and product design capabilities in private banking business, and widen the product and service offerings to our clients."

Beijing-based Bank of China said it sees a promising future for private banking and other services for China's newly affluent amid rapid economic growth.

Today in Business with Reuters

Iceland is all but officially bankrupt

U.S. Treasury considers part-ownership of banks

Dow closes below 9,000 for first time in five years

"With the rapidly growing global demand for wealth management services, private banking and asset management are becoming increasingly important parts of the Chinese financial services industry," the statement said.

Bank of China said it hoped the deal would strengthen its presence in Europe. China's top banks are among the world's largest in financial terms but inexperienced at consumer services. They have formed ties with foreign partners to introduce credit cards and other products.

Bank of China and LCFR said they also would cooperate in developing services outside China and France.

Bank of China is the country's No. 3 commercial lender by assets but has its biggest foreign exposure. It said the latest deal was the first of its kind by a Chinese bank in an economy that uses the euro currency.

The deal expands Bank of China's European ties just two months after it bought 30 percent of Swiss-based Heritage Fund Management SA in July for 60 million yuan (US$9 million).

Founded in 1953, LCFR is controlled by the Rothschild family, which has a 250-year history in European banking. LCFR says it has nearly 30 billion euros (US$45 billion) under management.

LCFR chairman Benjamin de Rothschild, quoted in the Bank of China statement, said, "This agreement opens up a new era of development for La Compagnie Financiere Edmond de Rothschild in the tradition of innovation and international expansion of our group."

___

On the 'Net:

Bank of China Ltd: http://www.lcf-rothschild.fr/en

Does G7 have the tools?
As G7 prepare to Washington, some question whether they have the tools to tame the markets.

Dow down 35% from record
This is one anniversary investors are soon to forget.

IMF: "the cusp of global recession"
IMF Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn said the global economy is on the brink ...

Iceland govt takes last bank
Iceland has seized control of its biggest bank Kaupthing, as it grapples to control the financial crisis which...

Savers move to ethical banking?
As stock markets fall, and the credit crunch bites, Dutch ethical investment bank Triodos has seen a rise in t...

Europe's carmakers put on the brakes
European carmakers are cutting output as the the credit crisis hits and recession spooks consumers.

China's red-hot art market cools amid financial turmoil
Sotheby's Chinese art sales in Hong Kong weaken, as collectors stay on the sidelines

Asia latest to cut interest rates
South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan become the latest countries to cut interest rates.

Rate cuts lift Asia stocks U.S. and Europe rate cuts supported Asian shares, as investors hoped for
more measures to address the worst fi...

ECB chief says rate cuts important for confidence.
Coordinated policy action hopes to boost markets, investors and citizens as global recession looms.

News from AP

Latin American stocks sink for 4th straight day

In flailing Iceland, disbelief and regret, Iceland is all but officially bankrupt.

one of the truisms on wall st. is "sell on Rosh Hashanah (10 days ago) and buy on/after Yom Kippur (tomorrow).
My advice?
Buy your favorite stock(s) hand over fist tomorrow and you will make 10% within 2 weeks.

well if your favorite stock was AAPL (mine) you would have made 10% TODAY