The Ojai Post

growing our own kombucha at home, in the cupboard, or nurturing other probiotics, helps us to advance our alkalinity, as well as a raw diet of greens.

Raymond-

Your poorly disguised attempts at business building on the post are sickening.

Please go away.

And don't give us your tired old song and dance routine, whatever form it may take this time.

Your approach here is simply not brilliant.

Ojai should have its own municipal water system as a supplement to the existing private one. Drill wells and sell the water in containers. If hard times come, we want to be in control of drinking water at least, when the corporate money thugs who live god knows where may not be able to deliver, or raise the prices sky-high, or cut and run. In such a scenario the plastic bottle fiasco may also dry up. Back to nature and natural water is the way to go.

For comment #2 Anonymous. First off, I don't plan to sell this product. I have enough projects to keep me busy. I may try it out once it is available and if it's good I'll recommend it. So my post was for information. You quickly drew a conclusion about my motivation and I don't appreciate it.

Other than being , what I feel is a coward by not signing your name, (and it's not like me to resort to name calling, but your constant harassing is foul)and staying anonymous so you you can remain invisible behind your vicious words... I'm curious. What are you up to in life? How do people find out about your activities? Do you share them with others? Are you a business owner? Are you so vengeful and hurt that you need to strike out or are you just some punk kid or anti-social adult abusing their freedom of speech.

Why are you so challenged when I present, what I feel, are good works in the world that also offer people an opportunity to sustain themselves? Or.. do you just have a personal vendetta against me for some reason and would rather lash out than have a conversation with me in person.

Your energy is misplaced and a detriment to the social fabric of this blog. Your anger is only eating at yourself. I wish you some peace.

and no.. I'm not going to stop sharing because you get triggered by my posts and yes... I half way expected to read some vitriolic comment by you.

Raymond-

that's a better song and dance

Not that I thought #2's comment was a particularly adult way to engage, but I would say that the link you posted, Raymond, looks like an affiliate link, meaning that if one were to sign up, you would make money.

This is reinforced by the "Join Us by Clicking Here" signup, which has your affiliate ID in the URL, and the "What Is The Real Water Club?" which lays out the affiliate payouts in detail.

I don't think its unreasonable to expect a little more transparency on the nature of the link and potential personal financial reward.

Tyler-

you are such a damn ADULT.
I'm way to old to be so adult.
You continue to be a role model and I learn from you after my 61 childish, child-like and barely adult years on the planet

Look, I apologize if you don't think my post was transparent enough. I don't plan to use it as an income stream or purchase enough to qualify. This was an info. piece and an opportunity for others. I have enough on my plate. I joined for free so I would get updates about the company because I have interest in the subject. T

his blog is always a lesson for me to choose neutrality,which isn't always easy. As a poster I feel like I need to defend myself or observe others being verbally attacked. there's a level of abuse present that I don't feel, Tyler has ever truly been addressed. I don't find this on any other online community I'm involved with, which is several. I appreciate the growth opportunity yet it's tiring to be in a community that seems to struggle with acceptance and allowing for self expression and for others to comment from a heart-centered place. It's truly why I rarely comment on this blog and post only occasionally. It's sad for me because I'm very connected to Ojai as a resident for almost 9 years and this is one of the few places to share openly what is important to us, yet the lack of respect for Tyler's post guidelines and criteria personally has me, and I know some others as well, not participate as much as we like.

Goodbye Raymond

Raymond, Ojai is a small town, some minds in a small town are smaller than others. Most of the jibes on the post are quite humorous... get over yourself quit being so sensitive. We should all have a belly laugh at least once a day even if it is at the expense of our own ego.

Yes.. and #9 I do bow down to your assholiness. You are a great teacher, a trickster, a coyote, and energy vampire. I don't believe I was saying goodbye. Simply commenting.

Wow! I'm marveling at the diligence with which people are taking Raymond to task for maybe wanting to sell this "E2 Stabilized Real Water Concentrate". But the thing that's throwing me is that the entire idea of Alkaline or ionized water is pure junk science. It's snake oil people! Come on, let's apply just a little critical thinking.

If you want to check if you've been hoaxed by these water hucksters, here's a good list of "products" that purport to have various benefits that simply do not exist.

The tone of this site I feel tends to ebb and flow. At times it has gotten pretty nasty, and other times, is downright uplifting.

I've had a fair number of requests over the last couple years to eliminate anonymity. The fact is, you simply can't. Even if you require people to create a "Real Name" and start an account, it's really just pseudonymous.

I would also offer that Ojai is a pretty diverse community in many ways - by age, ethnicity, socio-economic status, political affiliation. An open forum is naturally going to have a wide variety of opinions and ways to express those opinions, which you might not find in a community dedicated to, say, treehugging.

So the tone comes back to the words we use and how we engage others, particularly those who don't agree with us.

Shangrilalife: I laugh at myself plenty. Lots of opportunity there. However, just like the post about racism, abuse takes many forms and I see no place for it on an open community forum. So I have no problem "getting over myself" I'm simply asking for the community here, however diverse it might be, to raise the bar on civility. I can get into mud slinging as well as anyone but what's the point, what does it serve. One person's selfish desire?

did Raymond just play the race card?

oh my...

honestly Raymond, do you have ANY self-insight?

or do you just care to pretend you're one step ahead of everyone else...

When posting, take a look at the guidelines. Are you following them? If the answer is no, I think the author reserves the right to delete the comment.

#16-

where are those guidelines?
are u talking about the "Vision Statement"

If the author is not following guidelines, such as the "appearance" of commercial use, can the topic be deleted?

Guidelines: see below - the two paragraphs below "Post a comment"

I believe #16 is referring to this just above the comments field.

Comments are the sole responsibility of the person posting them. You agree not to post comments that are off topic, defamatory, obscene, abusive, threatening or an invasion of privacy. You also agree not to impersonate any regular authors or commenters with the intent to participate in deceptive dialogue. Violators may be banned.

Please treat fellow commenters with civility and respect, as if you were engaging in person. Despite differing opinions, we would all like to see Ojai's character and quality of life preserved and improved for generations to come. We're in this together.
--------------------
If in truth there are guidelines that state that posts cannot contain business opportunities, or the appearance of, than I missed that and I'll course correct. Show me where that's stated. Would that mean non-profits cannot post about fundraisers. They're a business as well. Or what about a for profit that donates most of it's revenue to non-profits.

Even if someone disagrees with a post there is communication that will honor the guidelines Tyler posted above.

I'm real sorry to see people fighting about how to talk to one another here on the post. But what about the veracity of the claims being made about water. Junk science posts like this on the post lower all of our credibility collectively.

I'd like to learn more, spk, if it is junk science. I don't know a lot about it except knowing that there is such a thing as water that has more aliveness in it, minerals, oxygen etc., like snow run off. Isn't that true? and then isn't a healthier body one that has more alkalinity? and often our diets make us very acidic. Itr's a field I only know a little bit about. Maybe someone else can chime in who has more of a physiology background.

SPK, doll. I have no opinion either way on this water issue. BUT, as much as I respect what you have to contribute on local political issues, I cringe slightly on your attack on what Raymond is advocating (commercially or not). You posted a link that, frankly, at first glance, looks as dubious as perhaps what you feel Raymond's claims are. I could be wrong (as I didn't spend too much time looking into the site) but , if you are so sure about what you are trying to debunk, could you frame your argument more concisely in your own words? I DO NOT trust ANYTHING from the web as irrefutable proof unless is sourced properly. Please enlighten us further - because, in theory, I kind of lean towards your premise. But I have a huge problem with surfing the web frantically trying to find justification and "backup" to bolster one's argument.

Tyler-

I also would appreciate a statement and clarification from you about the use of the post to promote commercial ventures.
If we get the go-ahead I can't wait to tell everyone what an incredible computer consultant and technician I am and how much everyone certainly needs my services (primarily Mac, some windows) and I will reveal my name...

...hahaha

tyler you goat-roper!!youre always using the P to promote (latest)commercial venture...why?

As far as the junk science angle is concerned.......

Raymond's post claims there are TWO problems with water that has been run many miles through pipes to reach us...

Problem One: It has been stripped of electrons.

Problem Two: It is too acidic.

Someone with a scientific background please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't these two problems one and the same? Isn't "too acidic" and "missing electrons" one and the same phenomenon?

This alone leads me to believe this is junk science.

Beyond that, there is really no credible statement offered of what is the natural pH (acid/alkaline) balance of water that has not been run through pipes, and by how much that natural pH is altered by being run through pipes.

So the logic to support the whole proposition seems very, very thin. It seems to me if Raymond is going to post this kind of thing, the burden is on him to provide at least a little credible evidence in support of it -- not on the rest of us to search around and disprove a proposition that seems highly dubious on its face.

bunni boy-

go back to your hutch

Tyler is the MAN!!

yea bunni balls!
tyler used to managed sting and zha zha gabor before moving to this berg...

I suggest any questions be directed at the founder, he would be much more knowledgeable that I in answering questions. On the website there is a listing for a conference call on Wednesdays at 6pm. I just heard about this yesterday so maybe my post was pre-mature. Many years ago, like 20, I had stock in a company called Medizone that was using ozone to purify blood and they had some drops that I used that oxygenated water. It increased my digestive metabolism and I went through some detoxing as well. Medizone was working with hospitals and military blood banks for transfusions and had white papers about their research. That seemed like pretty solid science to me and was suggested to me by my naturopath at the time. I'm assumed, and it may be inaccurate, that this Real Water product is an updated version of what they were accomplishing back then. I might be mistaken. Calling something junk science without clear evidence is equally misleading. At least the Real Water website has some explanations on it. The internet is full of pro and con opinions. I know that Dr. Chappell has been developing products for many years, I think since the '70's. He's respected and reputable. Here's his website: http://www.drjims-natural-cures.com/ I emailed him to give him or an associate the opportunity to respond to some of the comments.

Raymond- you make me laugh.
Are you ever not detoxing?
Thank you.

I make me laugh too. Well I guess if my system is functioning, yes I am always detoxing. I hope you are too!
But you sometimes the stresses of life can cause us to be a bit out of kilter, so a fast or drops or whatever are good preventatives to dis-ease. everyone does love Raymond except when they don't. But that's more about them, isn't it.
Always strive for acts of kindness.

Am I going to have to go to the spring out here and bend down and slurp to get pure water? Perhaps this is no lapping matter.

Very Funny!

Your mama is so ugly, when she got in the tub, the water jumped out.

I am hoping to acquire an article that Dr.Chappell wrote entitled, The Importance of Water to the Human Body. When I get it, depending on the format and length I will either post it here as a comment or put a notice up of it's availability.

Shangrilalife, I'm going to Lapland to get my water, no Round Up in it.

Raymond,

I can't help but notice you did not begin to address any of the actual substance of my two or three simple questions.

I guess that is a confession that you don't know the answer to the simplest things about this product.

I hope everyone is aware that "Dr. Chappell" is NOT an M.D. but a chiropractor.

David, I do not know the PH of water in it's natural state or if it fluctuates depending on location. I guess that would be snow run off prior to going through any type of municipal water system. I did a search on ask.com and found a couple of studies. One said the snow pH was 8-10pH another region mentioned 5.0pH but that was after some acid rains. I know the hot springs water was measured near me and was 9.4pH. Basically for our optimum health we want around a 7pH in our blood, this is neutral. Higher isn't good nor is lower. Diets rich with vegetables are high in alkaline and the chlorophyll alkalizes the body. Diets with lots of fats, meats, sugars are acidic and can cause our pH to drop to as low as 5. You can do a simple pH test on your tap water with a pool test and it will tell you the pH. But that won't tell you the other chemicals that might be in it.

I have a friend who's swimming pool was a beta site for water purification. He used magnetics, ozone and ultra-violet. This was in Topanga. I stayed on this property a couple times a week and often slept outside by the pool. When he installed this system the wild animals used to come and drink from it. One morning there were three baby owls bathing on the steps. The water definitely felt different. Like a lake or stream.

I don't have a scientific background. That's why I'm waiting to see if I can get the article form Dr. Chappell. As far as him not being an MD, he is a chiropractor and naturopath, which, to me, gives him more background in alternative cure and nutrition and knowledge of assisting the body to heal itself without the use of synthetic drugs. Here is a reference for what a naturopath entails. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathic_medicine

This from an online water district pamphlet.

A measure of the acid or alkaline content of water, pH values range from 0 to 14. The lower the pH value the more acidic the water, and the higher the pH value the more alkaline the water. The pH of drinking water normally ranges from 5.5 to 9.0. At pH levels of less than 7.0, corrosion of water pipes may occur, releasing metals into the drinking water. This is undesirable and can cause other concerns if concentrations of such metals exceed recommended limits.

Thus it goes to follow, I would think, that if low alkalinity will corrode pipes than if our bodies are high acid low alkaline corrosion would take place to and dis-ease would follow. So if we alkalize our water, or eat more greens, or as M.T. said, drink kambucha our inside piping may last longer.

O.K., Raymond, thanks for your good-faith effort to clear up a few facts.

I'm not sure about all of what you said -- I would think the natural state of water has a pretty consistent pH, and doesn't just depend on location!

But I appreciate your honest attempt.

(By the way, I think pH might be a logarithmic scale, which means a difference of one point is a difference in ten times the intensity..... )

just a few clarifications:

1. The pH scale runs from 1-14 (not 0-14)

2. The body attempts to maintain a blood pH level of about 7.35-7.4.
I guess this may differ for folks who are on an "alkalizing" program. But there are so many buffers in the body that the blood pH is quite consistent, unless a dis-ease process begins.

3. David- you are correct. the pH scale IS logarithmic. So a pH of 6 is 10 times more acidic than a pH of 7, as measured by hydrogen ion concentration

4. Acidity-alkalinity is one of those pet issues and concerns that health food people like to make a big deal out of. Most of them hardly know anything about it.
For instance- an orange, which is very acidic, when properly metabolized in a healthy body, leaves a highly alkaline residue. it's just that people with sensitive, or improperly functioning digestive systems will eat an orange, or any citric fruit, and have an "acidic" reaction and think they are acid producing.

5. Being a former chiropractor, my position is that the doctors of chiropractic are the "real" doctors, while "M.D.s" are the "quacks". Most of them are trying to serve people. And if I were shot I would want to be treated by a fine MD. But for true health building and understanding of body functioning, I would suggest a Doctor of Chiropractic rather than a Medical Doctor.

6. The "water" issue is so confusing that it takes a rather serious study to come to any sort of conclusions.
I would suggest some kind of filter, reverse osmosis, distillation, etc to remove the chlorine, chloramines and any one of many other "potentially" harmful chemicals and/or pathogens. But the notion of alkaline water or "wetter" water is highly suspect in my evaluation.

But as you may have heard,many feel that water is the next big issue and will become as important as oil in the coming years.

HTH

I feel much better after reading Dr Feelgood's intelligent comments!

The issue of contaminants or added chemicals in water is extremely valid. Chlorine or chloramines, other chemicals from faulty plumbing and fluoride are in our municipal water. We have a good filter on our tap and it takes out all chlorine and 80% of the fluoride as well as any other contaminants. Other then that, electron spin, "ionization", "aliveness", alkaline are all just buzz words for clever marketers that rarely have any true interest other than making some money.

That snow runoff you mentioned Raymond, if it was a small trickle of runoff directly from snow that fell through clear skies it would have a pH of 7. Right in the middle. H2O distilled (purified to just H20) has a natural pH of 7. Water is what calibrates the pH scale. If that trickle were urinated in by some squirrel, it would become slightly more acidic with a lower pH. If you took a glass of pure H2O and added some baking soda, it would become slightly more basic, or alkaline, with a higher pH.

Ojai's water has a lot of dissolved minerals in it and is naturally slightly more alkaline. It's actually great for brewing beer because you want "hard" water to bring out the flavors of the ingredients. The best thing you can do for your own water supply is to make sure your plumbing is in good shape and get a decent filter.

We've been trying to get away from using bottled water and got a Brita water filter pitcher a couple of months ago from Tru Valu. The water tastes better, and is supposed to be healthier, but I have no idea about the effects to alkalinity or pH. Also, because Ojai water is soooo hard, we use a water softener, which keeps the dishwasher from breaking and reduces our use of laundry and dishwashing detergents.

Someone asked if there are guidelines for Ojai Post authors...there aren't, but I would hope at the very least we would be held to the same standard as commenters.

I use a Brita pitcher as well, not only for (hopefully) better water, but for environmental reasons as well. We should all be boycotting those ubiquitous, horrid plastic water bottles except when absolutely necessary.

It's astounding how many plastic bottles are thrown away daily in the U.S. 70 million! Why didn't the bio-degradable corn starch bottles catch on? I do see more people with the, is it nalgene?, and with metal containers. Some people I see simply re-using a jar with a screw on lid. It's free and it's great drinking out of glass.

Here's an informative website about plastic bottle use: http://www.container-recycling.org/mediafold/newsarticles/plastic/2006/5-WMW-DownDrain.htm

On evan's or Suza's advice (maybe both) a while back, I got a Klean Kanteen, and I love it!

The article I was wanting to acquire written by Dr. Chappell is actually on the website of the link in my original post. I thought Dr. Chappell was referring to another article. It's called the Importance of Water to the Human Body and is under What is Real? in the left hand navigation bar. It's way too long to post here in the comments section.

It's an interesting read. I spoke with someone who has been involved with this technology for the last year and he said it's being embraced by doctors and health practitioners internationally.

So maybe it's snake oil or not for those who want to voice an opinion and joust, however people with hard science backgrounds are seeing the efficacy of it and end users are seeing a health improvement.

Raymond-

you are a true casualty of new age thinking and seem to have no ability to decipher reality from your fantasy of how you want the world to be.

"People with hard science backgrounds"?
"End users are seeing a health improvement"?

Raymond- please go take a rigorous elementary science or statistics course at your local community college.
Learn how to think, not fantasize.

#47 - how about letting go of the anonymity. Is that really how you'd frame the conversation if you were sitting down with Raymond at F&C?

Tyler- yes

Anonymous, did you read Dr. Chappell's article? Are there points made in it you specifically disagree with? Do you have your own counter arguments? So far, in most of your postings, you have chosen to character assassinate me rather than speak to what the posting is about which is negatively ionized, high pH water.

Raymond,
Why are you always deleting your (and others) previous posts? One would get the impression you’re trying control the “spin”...Jim

High pH is not the same as ionized water. Increasing the pH of water is possible. Add some baking soda for instance. Lowering the pH is also possible, squeeze a lemon into it.

Ionization of water is not something that happens:

No electrical device or chemical additive is capable of increasing these ion concentrations in pure water above this very minute level which is so small that for most practical purposes pure water can be considered to be ion-free, as evidenced by the fact that it will not conduct an electric current.

Now, you add a base to water to make it more conductive to enhance electrolysis. But once you add the base, it is no longer pure H2O

All water and all aqueous solutions contain both H+ and OH– ions. If the quantity of H+ exceeds that of the OH–, the water is said to be acidic. If there are more OH– ions than H+, the water is alkaline. Pure water, which contains equal numbers of both ions, is said to be neutral. Chemists express the degree of acidity or alkalinity on the pH scale which runs from about 0 to 14. Acidic solutions have pH values of less than 7, alkaline solutions more than 7. Pure water, being neutral, has a pH of exactly 7. Each unit on the pH scale represents a hundred-fold change in the ratio of the two kinds of ions; for example, if the pH is 8, there are 100 times as many OH– ions than H+ ions (that is, [H+] = 10–8, [OH–] = 10–6.)

Whether a water is acidic or alkaline, it will always contain equal numbers of positive and negative electric charges. Since alkaline water contains an excess of OH– ions, it must also contain some other kind of positive ion in addition to H+ in order to equalize the opposite charges. This extra positive ion is almost always a metal ion such as sodium, calcium or magnesium. Similarly, an acidic water must always contain negative ions in addition to OH–; the most common of these is bicarbonate HCO3–. This means that waters whose pH differs from 7 are never "pure" in the chemical sense.

keep drinking the water, Raymond
keep drinking the water...

Sean,

As a chemical engineer I'm wondering are you just pulling this crap out of your ass? Pure water doesn't conduct electricity? Let's check this one out, how about I fill a bathtub with pure water, measure it with my pH meter to make sure it's right at 7, you get in, and I'll throw in a hair dryer! I think that should put an end to your misinformation. Are you willing?

spk I'm not able to speak the way you can regarding the science. I hear that you say that "No electrical device or chemical additive is capable of increasing these ion concentrations in pure water above this very minute level..." So how do you explain the results they are getting on their test equipment?

Dr. Chappell writes in his article, "Recently, I had the opportunity to test the pH and the Oxygen Reduction Potential (ORP) or ionic value of a product called Real Water Concentrate for the Real Water Club. Unlike other products using potentially harmful substances to alkalize liquids, Real Water Concentrate uses a proprietary process call E2 Technology™. The only ingredients in Real Water Concentrate are purified water with trace amounts of magnesium and potassium. The E2 Technology™ process energizes the minerals with an abundance of negative ions attaching itself to the water. To my knowledge, there is no technology, company or product that can reproduce this process of ionic energy imprinting.

As a scientist, I have no interest in the outcome of any evaluation. I am merely reporting my observations and results. For five consecutive days, I placed twenty drops of Real Water Concentrate in 8 ounces of distilled water with a pH of 5.0. I tested this water using a Pinpoint pH monitor every 15 minutes for four hours. The average pH was 9.43. At the same time, I also tested this water using a Pinpoint ORP monitor. The pure distilled water had an ORP reading of +200. After infusing the Real Water Concentrate, the reading averaged a (MINUS) -127. In essence, Real Water Concentrate produces a strong alkaline anti-oxidant when mixed in solutions such as water."

Dear Mr. Wizard-

Just as important for the purposes of this discussion, are you willing to drink the water after it has electrocuted Sean, due to it's high ion concentration and purported health benefits?

Looks like Raymond's website also has a banner and link for Real Water at the bottom. Not trying to sell anything? Yeah right.