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O.K., Jock.....

In the true spirit of scientific inquiry, you have cobbled together out of your 9/11 conspiracy scenarios an actual PREDICTION.....

Based upon your conspiracy theories, you have PREDICTED that Bush and Cheney, before their term is out, will start another war and declare martial law in order to remain in power beyond next January and protect themselves from prosecution.

So let's make a deal, o.k.? If your PREDICTION proves to be true, and we get martial law in the next six or eight months and cancellation of the Presidential election, then all of us here who think your conspiracy theories are just paranoid fantasies will come over to your side...... o.k.??

BUT.... if your prediction turns not NOT to be true..... if life goes along pretty much as normal, and there is no martial law, and the election takes place as scheduled, and Bush and Cheney retire from public life in January.... then you will admit that all your 9/11 conspiracy theories ARE just paranoid fantasies, and you will give them up forever....... o.k.?? will you stand by your prediction and make that deal??

Or, you don't have the courage of your own prediction, and you just used it to grab everyone's attention??

I don't know enough to comment on Jock's entire post, but it seems important to separate Naomi Wolf's book, "The End of America," from the other items posted here.

These amazon reviews pique my curiosity:

“You will be shocked and disturbed by this book. Most Americans reject outright any comparison of post 9/11 America with the fascism and totalitarianism of Nazi Germany or Pinochet’s Chile. Sadly, the parallels and similarities, what Wolf calls the ‘echoes’ between those societies and America today, are all too compelling.”
—Michael Ratner, Center for Constitutional Rights

"Naomi Wolf sounds the alarm for all American patriots. We must come together as a nation and recommit ourselves to the fundamental American idea that no president, whether Democrat or Republican, will ever be given unchecked power."
—Wes Boyd, co-founder, MoveOn.org

"One of the most important books that's been written, certainly in the last decade or two, and perhaps in my lifetime."
-- Thom Hartmann, best-selling author and host of The Thom Hartmann Radio Program

“Naomi Wolf ’s End of America is a vivid, urgent, mandatory wake-up call that addresses momentous issues of tyranny, democracy, and survival.”
—Blanche Wiesen Cook, author of the three-volume Eleanor Roosevelt

Here's an excerpt and link to an interview with Naomi Wolf:

"If you think we are living in scary times, your worst fears may be confirmed by reading Naomi Wolf's newest book, "The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot." In it, Wolf proves the old axiom that history does repeat itself. Or more accurately, history occurs in patterns, and in order to understand where our country is today and where it is headed, we need to read the history books.

Wolf began by diving into the early years leading up to fascist regimes, like the ones led by Hitler and Mussolini. And the patterns that she found in those, and others all over the world, made her hair stand on end. In "The End of America," she lays out the 10 steps that dictators (or aspiring dictators) take in order to shut down an open society. "Each of those ten steps is now under way in the United States today," she writes.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112107R.shtml

Two more excerpts from the above mentioned interview with Naomi Wolf that caught my eye:

"Basically we'd still have an election, but it is possible the outcome would be predetermined because it's the U.S. attorneys that monitor what voting rights groups do, what is legal and who can decide the outcome of elections."

"...I could tell last fall when a law was passed expanding the definition of terrorists to include animal rights activists, that people who look more like you and me would start to be called terrorists, which is a classic tactic in what I call a fascist expansion."

Just one more thought, for now.

I have great respect for David's intellect and view. But when he wrote,
"...if life goes along pretty much as normal," that worries me.

Maybe because I was born in Europe and I know that life pretty much went on as normal when underneath the surface of normalcy great changes were taking place... I know that Life can change in an instant and that what looks "normal" suddenly no longer looks normal at all...

Let us remember that the way major changes can be accepted as normality is if it happens slowly, in almost unnoticed increments...

Anyone interested in learning some of the facts about the plane that crashed into the pentagon, rather than paranoid fantasy conspiracy theories, can consult this article in wikipedia...... it includes mention of a large number of direct eye-witnesses who specifically observed the large aircraft (NOT a missile) plow into the building....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77

Suza, I am sorry you took my remark out of context and twisted its meaning..... it is beneath your intelligence... especially when you do so in the service of paranoid fantasy conspiracy theories about 9/11....

David, my sincere apologies if I took your remark out of context.

May I gently point out that you did not acknowledge my comment that it is important to separate Naomi Wolf's book from the rest of the information in the post.

I'm curious if you read her interview and what you think of her books.

"Anyone interested in learning some of the facts about the plane that crashed into the pentagon, rather than paranoid fantasy conspiracy theories, can consult this article in wikipedia...... it includes mention of a large number of direct eye-witnesses who specifically observed the large aircraft (NOT a missile) plow into the building...."

Ya ok. Wikipedia is so credible. Anyone can edit any page, and have you heard about the military ip's being logged on wiki changing certain things? Its not a fantasy. Open your eyes. You must be 40+ as you have grown up all your life believing everything you see on tv. Brainwashed.

You must be 40+ as you have grown up all your life believing everything you see on tv.

Are you kidding? Do you really believe that people 40 and over believe everything they see on TV?

9/11 conspiracy theorists are just too much!! If you really belive all that hooey I truly fell sorry for you.

you can't discredit the theories and throw out the whole movement that easily, Mr. Fusion.

for the sake of dialogue, what do YOU say happened to the giant aircraft that made and then vanished into that little hole in the Pentagon?

Dear Evan,

If you are interested in this kind of thing, you really should do a little bit of research of your own before you accept uncritically the "evidence" of 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Jock Doubleday has left readers of the Ojai Post with the impression that that photograph shows the only hole created by the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.

In fact, that hole was created in an INTERIOR wall of the Pentagon, AFTER the plane crashed through and made a far larger hole in the exterior wall of the Pentagon. The fact that Doubleday conveniently leaves out that fact is typical of the distorted and disingenuous nature of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists in general.

If you google 9/11 conspiracy theories, you will be led to a large resource of articles discrediting the whole movement, point by point. Here is a link to one source that addresses specifically the size of the hole(s) in the Pentagon, along with several other issues:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6#bigplane

respectfully, david (and i mean that very sincerely), i have done a fair - though not exhaustive or comprehensive - amount of my own exploration into the credibility of the 9/11 theories. i'm not prepared to accept all of it, but serious questions remain unanswered by any party. i did pose my simplified question "for the sake of dialogue".

for example, my understanding is that the hole on the OUTSIDE wall of the Pentagon is STILL too small to accommodate the airliner that is claimed to have crashed into it, and there are no marks on the building from wings or engines. strange.
the nose of an airliner typically crushes even in minor impacts, and yet we're asked to believe that the nosecone of a plane that was VAPORIZED made it far enough to punch a neat hole into an interior wall? again, strange.

i'm not into debating or defending the theories point by point, but those are just two items of strangeness on the one facet we've mentioned (the holes in the Pentagon). as you know, there are points and counterpoints for every bit of strangeness that exists. as a general foundation, however, it is not so inconceivable to any of us that a government - OUR government - might do something dastardly and lie about it. we've done it before, we're doing it now, and we have every reason to believe it'll happen again. so why is 9/11 exempt from suspicion at the very least?

In order to keep that blindfold working, Davey boy, you might want to avoid websites and people that are comfortable with questioning authority. Eventually your habit of lumping all those you disagree under one convenient label will wear thin. This type of lazy thinking can only maintain your status quo belief system for so long before the facade of your denial becomes apparent to even you. I suggest you only watch Fox news, CNN and the Disney channel. Patronize Burger King, Mc Donalds and Taco Bell. While eating your fast food you can gather with other like minded, insulated folks and comfort each other. You can talk about all those crazy liberals and gullible conspiracy theorists while shaking your head at their inability to deal with the carefully constructed reality of your kind and benevolent Christian leaders. Shop at Vons and don't make eye contact with those living outside your invisible fence. Their shining eyes just might hint at something beyond your comprehension and we all know how dangerous this can be. Merry Christmas and thanks for all the letters and cookies. Ho! Ho! HO!

evan,

i can see you evidently did not bother to read the link I sent, where all your new objections are addressed...... (that interior hole, for example, was not made by a nose cone, as you have assumed for some unaccountable reason.....)

what I find appalling about jock doubleday's post was the complete lack of intellectual honesty in failing to point out that the plane had already gone through an entire wing of the pentagon -- i.e. gone through a whole thick complex building -- before some piece of what remained made the hole in the interior wall shown in that photo.....

that in itself tells you all you need to know about 9/11 conspiracy theories....

david,

you're right that the link you included ADDRESSES the examples i cited, but i don't think it serves as end-all evidence or proof of anything. for example, it does not address why there are no marks on the outer wall from the GIANT ENGINES, or where the "sheared off wing(s)" ended up. the interior hole was made by landing gear of a plane that was LIQUIFIED? what, did it have solid titanium landing gear? and where IS it? it just doesn't add up.

again, i'm not interested in a point-by-point...i'm not an expert on any of this, and it's not really the issue of most importance to me. but i'm leaving myself open to the possibilities because of the comments i already made that you didn't address. i value your intelligence...please don't think that my virtual voice is escalating or that i'm claiming some iron grip on absolute truth.

and i'm agreed with you about the discrepancy in the original post...it certainly doesn't help "the cause" (and neither does its sheer length!)

good grief, evan,

You keep shifting the terms of the argument..... each time i answer one of your objections, you come up with entirely new ones, without ever acknowledging that the previous one got answered..... so this is an endless (and thankless) task....

For other readers, i have copied below some of the answers to some of evan's other questions.... i particularly recommend the concluding quote from eyewitness structural engineer Allyn Kilsheimer.

What does not copy are the photographs from the article (link provided in previous comment), showing, for example, some of the plane debris....

Also there is a good photo that shows the whole way the Pentagon is constructed, as a series of concentric "rings".... in the photo you can see that the plane that hit the Pentagon passed all the way through the whole outer ring, ring E, totally demolishing all the internal walls and support structures you would find in a massive building of that type, before some remaining portion of the plane crashed into an internal ring, ring C, leaving the hole that Jock Doubleday has posted above.

The fact that Doubleday puts up that photo with the impression it is a picture of the primary, initial point of impact of the plane with the Pentagon is not just a "discrepancy", evan, but a massive, wholesale massacre of the truth.....

and for good-hearted people like you to give even a little bit of credence to this lunacy is sad because it discredits all your good work in other areas....

o.k., i am finished on this thread... what follows is copied from article cited above.

The Pentagon
At 9:37 am on 9/11, 51 minutes after the first plane hit the World Trade Center, the Pentagon was similarly attacked. Though dozens of witnesses saw a Boeing 757 hit the building, conspiracy advocates insist there is evidence that a missile or a different type of plane smashed into the Pentagon.

HQ Attack: Taken three days after 9/11, this photo shows the extent of the damage to the Pentagon, consistent with a fiery plane crash. (Photograph by Department of Defense)

Big Plane, Small Holes
Claim: Two holes were visible in the Pentagon immediately after the attack: a 75-ft.-wide entry hole in the building's exterior wall, and a 16-ft.-wide hole in Ring C, the Pentagon's middle ring. Conspiracy theorists claim both holes are far too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "How does a plane 125 ft. wide and 155 ft. long fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. across?" asks reopen911.org, a Web site "dedicated to discovering the bottom line truth to what really occurred on September 11, 2001."

Hole Truth: Flight 77's landing gear punched a 12-ft. hole into the Pentagon's Ring C. (Photograph by Department of Defense)

FACT: When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon's exterior wall, Ring E, it created a hole approximately 75 ft. wide, according to the ASCE Pentagon Building Performance Report. The exterior facade collapsed about 20 minutes after impact, but ASCE based its measurements of the original hole on the number of first-floor support columns that were destroyed or damaged. Computer simulations confirmed the findings.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."

The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide — not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet's landing gear, not by the fuselage.

Flight 77 Debris
Claim: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. "In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found," claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, "What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?"

Aftermath: Wreckage from Flight 77 on the Pentagon's lawn — proof that a passenger plane, not a missile, hit the building. (Photograph by AP/Wide World Photos)

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

david, you said you're done so i hope that i can respond and still honor that you've chosen to stop. it's not about the last word...you just said some good things.

in case you're still here:
i'm sorry for appearing to shift the argument...it is not my intention. i referred to the engines and wings AGAIN, and they still have not been addressed. i referred to the landing gear and the "liquified" fuselage because that's the explanation given by the article you cited. i didn't think i was bringing up new or evasive material, just making reference to items that you were bringing up for inclusion.

i am agreed with you about the misleading nature of the original post's photos...your strength of language is appropriate, i believe.

why did all the wreckage from a CRIME SCENE get whisked away so fast? why were local surveillance tapes that potentially showed the impact confiscated and never shown? (new issues, i know) i'm just trying to illustrate that there are legitimate questions that remain unanswered and that in the absence of that proof of what YOU say happened, your version of 9/11 truth is just as much a theory as the conspiracies are.

Well said Evan. It seems your ability to bend over backwards to appease David's angry ego is lost on him (but not on me).

Dear David,

You wrote:

"and for good-hearted people like you to give even a little bit of credence to this lunacy is sad because it discredits all your good work in other areas...."

As you are fond of saying, "Good grief!"

That's almost word-for-word what you told our mom a few days ago!

We understand you are exasperated but just because people might be going down the wrong road in one area does not discredit everything else they do!

Our mom read us evan's comments and our sense is that he is sincerely trying to sort things out.

Please don't get mad!

Getting lost once in a while is the price we pay for not automatically traveling the road someone else puts us on!

As your friend Krishnamurti often said, "Question everything!"

We pigs applaud all sincere truth seekers!

With love,

Tillie and Rosie
Ojai Spokespigs

PS

Our mom just read us Comments #17 and #18. That evan is such a nice fellow! We hope you can feel the kind spirit behind his communications. And also see the humour and irony in Santa Clauses response.

We hope you will come back out to play!

There is one thing certain in all of this. The official version of events has serious problems. The hole in the Pentagon could have been caused by an airliner as the wings would have folded back rather than widening the hole. Okay, but why would it be claimed that the two titanium engines vaporized? That's impossible.

I'm a student pilot working toward my license and I actually have more hours in the Cessna 172 than the four hijackers who took over those planes on 9/11. I've also been in the cockpit of a 757 and watched a flight crew flying one. I can assure you, I would not have been able to incapacitate the flight crew, usually ex-military personnel, with my trusty box cutter and begin flying that aircraft in the manner those hijackers did. Oh I probably could have punched in the appropriate coordinates into the autopilot/INS system and pushed the throttles to their stops. The plane would have made a U-Turn, as they all did, and it would have been noted by air traffic control who would have tried to raise the aircraft on radio and, failing that, would have contacted NORAD. At least that's what happened when Payne Stewarts' private Lear Jet lost cabin pressure and strayed from it's flight plan 23 months earlier. Fighter Jets watched the stricken private Lear jet for hours as it flew North and eventually crashed into a field in South Dakota. But I digress. The really impossible part for me would have been the descent at top speed toward the Potomac and then somehow muscling that plane on its serpentine course at nearing 700 knots just 600-1000 feet above the river until it scored a direct hit on the side of the Pentagon without marring the lawn next to the building in any way. Now I'll grant you, maybe it could be done, but a few hours learning to take off in a Cessna 172 is really really poor training for that particular maneuver. Perhaps they used Microsoft's Flight Simulator.

I don't necessarily believe most of the "9/11 - inside job" stuff. I half suspect that a lot of the talk of bombs in buildings, etc. is misinformation being put out to make the whole issue of questioning the official story of 9/11 such a morass of confusion that most people shrink away. I think it's possible that people in the Administration knew what was coming and intentionally looked the other way. They could have issued certain orders, like the stand down order to NORAD, to facilitate the success of the terrorist operation and just gone on about their day. Of course, that would still mean they were culpable. They didn't have to fly the planes remotely or bomb the towers to be criminally liable for the outcome.

Hmm.

No doubt the official story does not make sense in many respects.

But it is hard to believe the Bushies had the competence to pull this off, given what they've shown us in everything else they've tried.

On the other hand, their incompetence after nearly eight years reminds one of the old adage "crazy like a fox." Oil at $118/barrel, a direct funnel of tax dollars to Bush/Cheney cronies, billions in these criminals' pockets ... they sure have done well by incompetence.

The thing is, horrendous as the actual possibility that Bush and crew, or some shadowy cabal associated with them, were the real perpetrators of 9-11 might be... isn't 9-11 far overshadowed at this point by the crimes and terrorism that Bush and Cheney take credit for? They've killed more Americans in their illegal wars than were killed in the towers. They've killed and terrorized hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. They've kidnaped innocent civilians, tortured innocents, held thousands without any recourse. They've done more to decimate this economy and our country's position in the world than anything that came from the attacks themselves.

Isn't it the fact that they are greater traitors and terrorists for what they acknowledge having done since 9-11, than they would be for the 9-11 attacks which they may or may not have had a role in?

If we can't hold them accountable for the far greater crimes they admit having perpetrated, what is the point of yammering on about their role in 9-11?

Note that there is a difference of opinion among the LIHOPs (people who believe those in power Let-it-Happen-on-Purpose). While some believe that the government knew the exact location of the targets, others believe they just had some vague notion of an attack and were prepared to let it go down. Without doubt, there were warnings. Without doubt, they were negligent at best. Whether or not they actually intentionally gave orders to stand down…I am open to that being a possibility – however remote I think it may be. But I have a VERY hard time believing that those sitting in the White House were complicit in intentionally allowing a 747 to come anywhere near D.C.

As for those who fall into the other category – the MIHOPs (Made-it-Happen-on-Purpose)...well, as I’ve said before – not only do I disagree, but I think (as many do) that it is a huge distraction and takes away time and energy from the real crimes committed by this Administration. I also wouldn’t put it past this Administration to do their part to keep this whole controversy alive by feeding the 9/11 Movement ammunition (false information). Unfortunately, I see many of these groups playing right into their grubby, greedy little hands…

(However, trying to sort out the truth through the gazillion online sites not only takes a full-time commitment but feels like descending into a horrid vortex of internet hell. After wading through some of these websites, I often feel like I need a hot shower and a darn good scrub!)

"Isn't it the fact that they are greater traitors and terrorists for what they acknowledge having done since 9-11, than they would be for the 9-11 attacks which they may or may not have had a role in?

If we can't hold them accountable for the far greater crimes they admit having perpetrated, what is the point of yammering on about their role in 9-11?"

Anonymous, I was still writing my post while yours posted. I have to say - I agree wholeheartedly. Isn't it time we all unite, FOCUS, and convict!