ojai news at The Ojai Post :: blog, newspaper, events in Ojai, California

Wow, Tyler, you are right, they have a major flaw in their system. Once the article is reposted elsewhere, the link back makes it appear like a legit news story by a Star reporter, on the Star webpage.

Wonderful propaganda tool for the SOS/NMI hate groups. Though they ought to learn how to write and use spellcheck. No link will fool anyone reading that story into believing it was printed in a legit paper.

I'm not sure there's much of a local Ojai thread issue here, other than to drop a note to Star staff to take a look at what's happening. Maybe I'm missing it.

If this is the first time you've ever thought to question The Star's credibility, you haven't been watching them very closely.

When I read garbage like that "article", I want to laugh, then cry, then print out the article and have at it with my RED PEN! I feel sickened and angry and I don't know how to reconcile that with my attempts to model peace and compassion. On one hand I feel sorry for these guys because they are so full of fear and hatred - must suck to be them. But I also resent their actions and someone has to stand up to this kind of BS. It is hard to "Be the change "I want to see in the world when I feel anything but peaceful. I'm having an image of myself hitting someone with an OPC sign! And I'm rather enjoying that fantasy! Not very peaceful... Does anyone else feel this way?

If you call a reporter or an editor they will likely remove it.

" It is hard to "Be the change "I want to see in the world when I feel anything but peaceful. I'm having an image of myself hitting someone with an OPC sign! And I'm rather enjoying that fantasy! Not very peaceful... Does anyone else feel this way?"

If it's any consolation, Gypsie, I ALWAYS feel this way when faced with such clear manifestations of Ignorance, Stupidity, Hatred, Injustice, Intolerance and Bigotry. In fact, the first (immediate and uncensored) thought I had when I heard about the pepper spray incident, is "I would've f-ing pounded the crap out of that moronic, hate-filled Neo-Nazi bitch!"...but then of course, when I calmed down, I realized that would not have been a reasonable or mature way to react. But I did fantasize about it (plenty) from afar - and boy, did I get her good!!!

Or just go hit up the comments section, post links to less one-sided coverage, if anyone's interested in taking action against the miscoverage.

YouTube's already been blitzed by misleading one-sided "journalistic" coverage of the event. I can't recognize the voice, but it sounds a lot like Sam Zislman to me, and he had a camera there that day. I can't believe he's a college professor, but he is - I did a bit of spot-research on Google - of course, it could have been one of the other SOS/NMI members with a camera, too.

http://youtube.com/user/GeauxNOSaints

All the ones marked "Ojai Day Labor Protest" are about the same level of journalistic integrity as this article. He doesn't mention his own protest group at all, instead focusing on insults and name-calling against the Latino youth that showed up on the other corner.

Check it out for a good time...wait, no.

Oh, and absolutely do not strike any SOS/NMI members if you all decide to show up at any more of their protests, or if they come back. Absolutely do not. You will go to jail, or else get killed by a Minuteman.

The cops aren't really on anyone's particular side here - as they should not be - but jail sucks. Besides which, groups under the Minuteman banner are known to walk around armed to the teeth, up to and including concealed firearms. It's not worth it.

Good point, Nev.

My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Of course, violence obviously is not the answer.

Is it just me, or has The Star slumped even further to the right since Tim Gallagher left?

Gypsy-

let me try a lil psych mumbo-jumbo on you.
You don't NEED to react or better yet your reaction (or lack of reaction) is up to you.
Matter of fact it is totally in your control.
It may take a bit if work to realize that.
You might need to meditate, or go spend a month with at Plum Village with Thich Nhat Hanh.

But you are, you are becoming and you will be the change you want to be

Anicca, Anicca, Anicca...

Tyler,
You make several personal judgements on the article in question:

1. "the article being neither a pure news story, nor editorial."

I am shocked that such a polific writer yourself doesn't recognize another writer using their Internet Consitutional Free Speech. The Internet is not just for people holding your views on these matters. It's open to all. Live and let live.

2."the VC Star makes no distinction about these user-posted articles, which are available through Google News and web search - in other words, much of the traffic to the page won't come through the "Your News" main page, which has "community journalism" in the page title."

Please supply proof of your statement here. Got links? Otherwise, you are just showing your cynical opinion as a victim of Ventura Star (A competitor news of your Ojai Post, naybe?)and little else of any consequence. You have the right to post your opinion like the Ojai protesters do, right? Live and let live.

3."the article is being picked up by the anti-illegal immigration groups as news coverage for their event, with the association of it carrying the full weight of the Ventura County Star."

News Flash: People have the personal right to take Internet article's information (or not) the way they want to in our country. That is also Freedom of Speech/Thought, too. AND, are you cynical or not too cynical in your thinking of these matters? How do you know what's in someone's head or what they are thinking? Clairvoyant or 'big brother'? I am not so sure members of those 'anti-illegal immigration groups' are thinking the community supplied article was from the Star's news staff. If so, it's a citizen's right to be wrong thinking. Anyway everyone is considered wrong thinking to anyone else today, big deal. I don't worry so much about this issue. Live and let live.

4."But the implications for their long-cultivated brand warrant more consideration than it appears they have been given by allowing such biased content to appear without qualification under the Ventura County Star masthead."

Haven't you ever read the Ventura County Star? It's full of so-called 'official" news gathering biase most days depending on the reporter. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I see biase. This Internet area is clearly for community writers to use (maybe just like your Ojai Post area?). Don't like it's content, that's alright. Maybe the author doesn't like your views, either. BUT, I don't see him trying to get this article in question censored or removed solely because of you not liking it's publication. That's Gestapo book burning tactics that I know you would not employ against any community writer, right? Live and let live.

It is ever so clear that "A Thinker" is going have to do a lot more thinking if he or she wants to even try rebutting what Tyler wrote. Read again A Thinker (and again if you have to), evaluate what he actually said and then come on back with another post if you so choose. The one above clearly shows you did not grasp the essence of what was written.

Nice try, though!

Dear 'A Thinker' -

1) regarding "Internet Consitutional Free Speech" - i never said the pseudonymous author shouldn't be able to write what he or she wrote.

2a) Please supply proof of your statement here.
Sure - if you look at ojainews.com, scroll down to the bottom section with the header "Ojai Google News alert" and you will see a direct link to the article in question. And if you Google something like "ojai illegal" you will see a direct link to the article in question.

2b) The Ventura County Star is not a competitor, in part because we don't take any advertising. The Ojai Post is a completely non-commercial community blog. In fact, the Star links to us in their "blogs" section.

2c) re: You have the right to post your opinion like the Ojai protesters do, right?
Oh, so it is an opinion piece and not a news piece? That's my point - the Star makes no distinction, which I feel is potentially damaging to their journalistic integrity.

3a) re: I am not so sure members of those 'anti-illegal immigration groups' are thinking the community supplied article was from the Star's news staff.
Well, if you look at the link I provided to the alipac.us forum, it is pretty clear that the inference is that the article is from the Ventura County Star, and not some peudonymous poster.

3b) re: It's a citizen's right to be wrong thinking.
Thank you providing an example with such clarity.

4a) re: This Internet area is clearly for community writers to use (maybe just like your Ojai Post area?).
You have missed exactly my point - this "Internet area" on the Star is absolutely NOT "clearly for community writers to use."

Regarding the Post, there is no "Ojai Post area." The Ojai Post is The Ojai Post - it is an independent, non-commercial community blog, where each author and commenter expresses their own unique viewpoints. And I have made that clear by text in the left column that appears on every single page of the site.

4b) re: BUT, I don't see him trying to get this article in question censored or removed solely because of you not liking it's publication. That's Gestapo book burning tactics that I know you would not employ against any community writer, right?
I'm not trying to get his article removed. Where did I say that? To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, one of my all-time favorite immigrants, "I do not think my article means what you think it means."

4c) re: Live and let live.
Fine advice coming from someone who favors deportation of 15 million people.

Thanks for sharing.

Although it's common knowledge that conservatives are no longer entitled to an opinion, where were you when the "Red Star" posted anti-Bush, anti-Iraq and biased articles every day? You don't like what he posted? Post your own.

Readers, was my original post not clear? Because some people, R. Miller included, seem to be completely missing the point.

"Although it's common knowledge that conservatives are no longer entitled to an opinion.." = "waaaah".

Gee. I guess Fox News must have gone off the air in your neighborhood.

The opinions of everyone (Conservatives included) are read and responded to here, sometimes respected and sometimes not. But, first and foremost, the main criteria is that something should make sense (especially if one is going to try to rebut something that is clearly intelligent and well thought out as what Tyler wrote.)

Let me give you an example:

A Thinker wrote: “I am not so sure members of those 'anti-illegal immigration groups' are thinking the community supplied article was from the Star's news staff. If so, it's a citizen's right to be wrong thinking."

So, uh, if someone wrote a hate-filled manifesto claiming that the Holocaust never happened, for example, and that piece accidentally got linked to a legit news source and someone else read it and believed it to be true – that is his right?!? And it is his right to not only blanket himself in ignorance but to then forward such crap on wherever and to whomever he chooses???

R. Miller and A Thinker – anything sinking in here???

I think Tyler should, as much as possible, try to maintain a stance of journalistic neutrality, or he and the Ojai Post risk losing credibility as well. Editorializing in the comments section of any article is risky for a journalist...

Bear in mind, Tyler, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but my objective here is to try to keep everyone safe, as much as possible.

Regardless of your stance that the conservative view is "welcomed" here, my belief is that it's as welcome as a sticker in your shoe. Facts are facts. Illegal immigrants, those who will NOT enter this country legally, are breaking the law. Further, we spend over $7MILLION a year educating their young, providing healthcare and housing that we won't even provide to our own citizens. This cost FAR outweighs any benefits of a $0.50 increase in lettuce price. I am not a huge fan of NMI or SOS. I find them to be ignorant hillbillies for the most part pounding their chests and ranting about how "patriotic" they are, but the message they bring is true. We are being invaded and as a single parent with three jobs, I'm pissed. YOU pay it. I'm done.

Facts are facts, except when they aren't your facts...

Study finds immigrants commit less California crime
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN246261520080226
Feb 26, 2008 - Reuters

Immigrants are far less likely than the average U.S.-born citizen to commit crime in California, the most populous state in the United States, according to a report issued late on Monday.

...

According to the report's authors the findings suggest that long-standing fears of immigration as a threat to public safety are unjustified. The report also noted that U.S.-born adult men are incarcerated at a rate more than 2 1/2 times greater than that of foreign-born men.

"Our research indicates that limiting immigration, requiring higher educational levels to obtain visas, or spending more money to increase penalties against criminal immigrants will have little impact on public safety," said Kristin Butcher, co-author of the report and associate professor of economics at Wellesley College.

The study did not differentiate between documented immigrants and illegal immigrants.

...

Among men 18 to 40, the population most likely to be in institutions because of criminal activity, the report found that in California, U.S.-born men were institutionalized 10 times more often than foreign-born men (4.2 percent vs. 0.42 percent).

Among other findings in the report, non-citizen men from Mexico 18 to 40 -- a group disproportionately likely to have entered the United States illegally -- are more than eight times less likely than U.S.-born men in the same age group to be in a correctional institution (0.48 percent vs. 4.2 percent).

"From a public safety standpoint, there would be little reason to further limit immigration, to favor entry by high-skilled immigrants, or to increase penalties against criminal immigrants," the report said.

R. Miller – Clearly, as a country, we should all realize that we have a near-broken system (on many fronts) and we would all do well to educate ourselves about immigration reform and the issues surrounding it. We probably ALL agree to that. The solutions, of course, are where we differ. It is an extremely complicated and controversial issue – obviously.

I think what many of us here are so worked up about is the way some of these SOS/NMI-type groups think and behave and then demand legitimacy. Hopefully, you will agree with me that scapegoating an entire group of people (and allowing others – as in those who are here legally – to get caught in the same net) has never been wise (indeed many times it has backfired and blackened our history). Would you not agree that there are much more legitimate, morally just and intelligent ways to try to deal with this issue other than harassing a few guys standing on street corners (demanding to see their Social Security cards! Please!), staging intentionally confrontational gatherings (on all of the civil marches and demonstrations I’ve participated in throughout my lifetime, I never even thought of bringing a can of mace, for goodness sake!) and then trying to pass off unsound (even moronic) arguments on the internet.

We are all going to be feeling a LOT of economic pain in the upcoming months (years) as our economy and the dollar is tanking. Do you really think it is morally defensible to blame poor Hispanic workers (who are for the most part decent, lawabiding citizens just trying to feed their families and keep out of trouble) and at the same time turn a blind eye to all the corporate welfare recipients who have obscenely benefitted in the last decade or so? (We do, btw, have your party to thank for that, wouldn’t you agree?)

I wish life were easier for you at the moment (three jobs must be brutal!) I truly and sincerely wish you and your family all the luck in the world!

Regardless of your stance that the conservative view is "welcomed" here, my belief is that it's as welcome as a sticker in your shoe

Oh, don't even go down this path unless you're ready to hear weeks -- if not months -- worth of recriminations for how conservatives have publicly treated anyone to the left of them for at least the past 8 years, if not the past several decades.

Conservatives have had the ear of just about everyone for almost 2 presidential terms, and what have you done with your bully pulpit? Whose lives have you improved? You haven't even improved your own lives, much less anyone else's. You haven't done anything to fix the immigration problems in America, in spite of the fact that you had 4 almost completely unfettered years to make a start at it. Why? Because Republicans and their desire for $7.00 an hour labor without benefits or labor laws were behind all of the very problems they were complaining about.

You're getting treated a lot better here than any of us would be treated at Little Green Footballs or Red State or Free Republic. Those blogs BAN you if you disagree with them. You can say anything you probably plan on saying here and you'll be allowed to come back and say it all over again tomorrow, even if you bore the pants off of everyone and everyone here disagrees with you.

Why not dispense with the Rodney Dangerfield routine and simply say what you have to say and then just take your licks if, indeed, licks are what you earn? Why would you think that being a conservative guarantees you some kind of special dispensation?

At any rate, this thread is supposed to be about the credibility of the Star, not what people think about you and the rest of the folks whose thinking has sent America back to about the mid-1800s.

"Immigrants are far less likely than the average U.S.-born citizen to commit crime in California, the most populous state in the United States, according to a report issued late on Monday."

I can site you 10,000 that say that's completely false.

"The study did not differentiate between documented immigrants and illegal immigrants."

Call me when it's the illegal immigrants. THAT is what the protest was about. It's not about racism as you stated. It's about getting an even HEAVIER burden on American Taxpayers. Illegal Immigrants DO NOT pay taxes. They DO NOT pay for healthcare. They DO commit crimes. They committed one when they crossed the border illegally. I bill medical all day. Every single month my SMALL company bills MILLIONS of MediCal for hispanic surnames. MILLIONS, and we know which ones are illegal....no social. Millions. And we're a small company. Pound sand down someone else's pipes. I see it every day.

As to the credibility of the Star, don't make me laugh. There is no mainstream media I give an ounce of credibility to, now or before the former editor left.

And to phalarope? Blah blah blah liberal Sean Penn is my hero blah.

Tyer:
You have already shown that Your News and Ojai Post are two different Internet curent events sites with very differing characteristics. You are trying to compare your Ojai Post "APPLEs" to the Your News folks "ORANGEs". Your Ventura County Star newpaper creditbility point cannot be argued due to that difference. I sorta doubt they will worry or do just what you want on this very small matter. After all it's their site and newspaper.

Please keep your young attack trolls under control here because insultive comments don't further your position at all. It only really hurts you.
And, Tyler.."4c) "re: Live and let live." Fine advice coming from someone who favors deportation of 15 million people. Thanks for sharing."

That was a cheap shot from you and made you look foolish. I never stated my own views here on that matter. I discussed people who don't sgree with your view as stated. You assume too much, which was my WHOLE point. Don't get into my head, thank you! Discussion over, goodbye.
Live and let live, chum.

Blah blah blah liberal Sean Penn is my hero blah.

Sean who? The guy who came to Ojai in 1987 with Madonna and blew off a bunch of starry-eyed and giggly adolescent girls at Jovonne's Deli and basically told them to get the frak away from him and Madonna?

Nah. I like him about as much as I respect the tired, impotent and unoriginal conservative mindset.

Tried thinking your own thoughts lately, or do you just carry water for Rush Limbaugh and Lou Dobbs?

And, for the Post folks who may not have been here in '87, I really did mean "Jovonne's", and not "Giovanni's".

Jovonne's existed where Bonnie Lu's is today, although in between being Jovonnes's and Bonnie Lu's, it was Pedersen's, and was owned by the same man who owned Jovonne's -- Pete Pedersen.

The saddest part of all of this is that Gov. Schwarzenegger indicated support for the Minutemen back in 2005.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/04/30/GOVERNOR.TMP

As my mother put it today, "He's the biggest...immigrant on the block." For me, I know he may be a legal citizen at this point, but it seems violent and hypocritical of him - or at least very naive - to send tacit support to bands of vigilantes roaming the border. Some of those actions end very badly indeed, as such groups very rarely give their targets the benefit of hearing or trial before meting out punishment.

Personally, for me, I'm here now. I was born in America, I may not die here, and I'm okay with that. I am a full U.S. citizen with voting rights, I consider myself a world citizen, and I need to do better and start acting like one, more often. I cannot presume to speak for anyone else. I do not support unsanctioned acts of violence against illegal immigrants crossing our borders - I wouldn't support sanctioned ones, either.

Anti-illegal-immigration groups are starting to cross this line, from what I've been reading. That scares me more than al-Qaeda or any sort of foreign terror. It gives me a feeling of revulsion in my gut to think that there are people that violent and hateful in the cities I live in.

Hmm. Where oh where is a prime example of what Tyler is talking about, namely a hate group pointing to the Star article and pretending its legit?

http://www.nomoreinvasion.com/forum/index.php?topic=2457.135

Seems like we've got some NMI folks hysterical over here denying what they are doing over there.

Now watch them come back here and claim they don't know nuthin' 'bout NMI.

It always slightly amuses me that people like A Thinker come onto a thread like this and posit their contrarian views (which is great!!!) Often they start off with an insulting tone (again, fine - many of us use sarcasm as a tool to making a point) and then they proceed to fire off a litany of what they think are wonderful, non-refutable, debate-winning points (can’t you just feel the smugness, self-righteousness and "I gotcha!" feelings of joy (Whoohoo!!) oozing through your computer screen!). BUT when we “attack trolls” make what I think are fairly valid points or ask hard questions, they never reply directly. Instead they quickly change the subject, cry foul and persist in accusing us of being unfair, unwelcoming, threatening and dogmatic in our views. Then, of course, they hightail it outta here never to return – which to me is just fine, because these types of posters just aren’t worth the effort or the space.

Note to you guys: if you can’t keep up – then why come here in the first place? Certainly you can't blame us for your own ineptitude?!? Tyler isn’t the one with egg on his face looking “foolish” – you guys seem to be able to do that to yourselves with astonishing ease and regularity.

Again, I will ask you what I asked above: “Do you really think it is morally defensible to blame poor Hispanic workers (who are for the most part decent, law-abiding citizens just trying to feed their families and keep out of trouble) and at the same time turn a blind eye to all the corporate welfare recipients who have obscenely benefitted in the last decade or so?”

So, A Thinker and R. Miller – what do you have to say about your own party’s habit of robbing-the-poor-to-pay-the-rich. Isn’t that why, Mr. or Mrs. Miller, you may be having to work 3 jobs and why your future is in jeopardy. Do you ever really delve into any of these other complex issues that we all face, or is it just easier intellectually to blame the big bad Mexican boogeyman out there? You do understand, don’t you, that the wiping out of the American Middle Class has NOTHING to do with our neighbors to the south and EVERYTHING to do with corporate fascism and the policies of the current people sitting in the White House who are unabashedly abusing their power and wreaking havoc on our economy, our environment, our saftey, our future, our kids' future and so forth? Do you guys have any inkling or basic understanding of what is REALLY GOING ON in this country?

Also, to all those losing their minds and crying "Their stealing our jobs! Thier stealing our jobs!":

If you were paying attention to the global economy of late (instead of harrassing day laborers on street corners and getting into ugly confrontations with small town locals out for some fresh air and cups of coffee) you would have learned what the rest of us have - that the types of jobs you are probably grieving over are not, for the most part, the ones the "illegal aliens" are guilty of taking. We have GIVEN our manufacturing jobs to the Chinese and our technoligical service jobs to the Indians.

Our economic paradigm has shifted drastically - and we are all learning to cope in varying ways. Educating yourselves to this fact might be quite helpful to you all and will hopefully give you some ideas and information about how you can adapt and survive this onslaught of change. Just a thought...

I think the best course of action is simply to monitor the SOS/NMI boards, and go to the police in advance if they start planning to come back, explaining our research and our own fears about them inciting violence here.

These people are looking for "face time", as a passersby put it that day. They're fringe, they know they're fringe and don't really have any sort of majority popular support, and if we ignore them they will go back to their - probably unfulfilling and unhappy, or they wouldn't be doing this sort of thing - lives. Which is probably the best "punishment" any of us could devise, assuming anyone really needs to be punished here.

If they do come back to Ojai armed with pepper spray, signs, and too much yelling, I'd love to see about four cop cars waiting for them, ready to arrest for disturbing the peace, which, whatever else anyone wants to say, both sides were unquestionably doing that day. Maybe someone could tip off the counter-protesters to stay away themselves, no reason to arrest that many people when the Ojai jail is so small...

Here's an even better idea. Satire. If they decide to come back we just get a bunch of people to dress up in Nazi regalia and do a couple of numbers from Spring Time for Hitler from The Producers in the street right in front of them. Shoot the whole thing. Don't even give them the honor of our credulity to their cause.

Whose got costumes? Let's get it ready! We could have some fun with this. And we'd be assured they'd never come back.

Heck, I might even travel with that plan to one of their next stops, if they decide to stay away from Ojai as I expect they will.

This whole topic is sad. All this harangue and diversion - I'd say we are wasting our time, but "No More Invasion" invaded our town, and its not OK. I think we'd all rather be dealing with the real issues of the day - its just unfortunate that they have made the reality of vile hatemongers on the streets of Ojai a real issue of the day.

We seem to have stopped talking about the credibility of The Star.

Do we have any solutions to the problems at hand -- whatever we want to call those problems -- that don't involve getting in anyone else's face? Anytime I find myself mired in a fight that involves groups of people in Bush's America, I have to step back and take a breath and ask myself if I've been noodged, finessed, manipulated and lured into that fight by someone who needs to sidetrack and render useless the majority of the population of the US, if not the world?

"Divide and Conquer" has been the battle plan of crafty generals, politicians and advisors since at least the beginning of recorded history. Why do we keep falling for the same shit, over and over again? I'm not saying that we need to sing Kumbaya with the Brownshirts -- I don't even really feel like talking to them -- but these people are roadblocks. Why do we come to a halt and honk at them rather than see them from a long ways off and then just deftly steer around them? Why do even the best blogs wind up devolving into online versions of the Jerry Springer show, and why do I keep falling for it? What the hell is wrong with me?

Is there a real discussion to be had here, or are we just going to be content to continue to yell "Hurray for our side!" and "Screw you!" across Montgomery Avenue (figuratively speaking) until we get bored with it all?

Can we learn anything here, or are we just trying to school other people? I'm guilty of that, and I need to shut up again for awhile.

Well said Phalarope. You appear to be feeling today the way I was yesterday. When the Iraq war was starting I was so bowled over by the inherent stupidity of the act that the only thing I could do to feel any better about it was to take refuge in satire and stage a play with a lot of other like minded individuals. On this issue, I'm right back in satire mode. I'm done trying to reason with or make sense of these people. Now it's just time to make fun of them until they are relegated to obscurity. Just like the people who thought unilaterally invading Iraq was a good idea. When there's no reasoning with people, there's no reason to reason.

As for the credibility of the VC Star. Tyler has exposed this problem for them and I trust they will learn of it soon either from a reader here or from reading it here. I doubt very much that the editor of the Star want's to see his/her paper's credibility breached in this way. I think it's an oversight and I trust that it will corrected.

Sorry for returning to this intellectually bankrupt now trollish comments populated thread. An observation on OFF TOPIC abusive insultive comments posted against me and others trying to rationally discuss this matter:

The opinions expressed are certainly contentious, but ours are unquestionably relevant.
Everyone has a right to his or her own opinion. In this case, the debate on the future of illegal aliens in the USA and what is not. Opinions held based on supported facts are interesting. In spirited debates, such as this, a personal attack from one member to another does not support that member's position (it only makes that person appear to have a weaker personality and argument). We talked about content, not people. Please do not make your future posts 'personal' towards people here.

Trolling- Trolling is an internet term that means you're not posting to actually start or participate in a good discussion, but simply to anger another member or group of members. Posting in order to bait other users should not be tolerated or given any credibility.
Posters are making a personal attack on my opinions and me in an abusive manner. I have been polite.
I was speaking to another poster here. I have tried to be gracious with him. But, other surrogates of his biase views here still wants to pick a fight. I won't give it to them. Progressive surrogates have shown a combative argue attitude and a large chip on their mis-informed shoulder. Live and let live.

Three things I've learned about such trolls:

(1) They pick and choose the arguments they want to respond to just to hear themselves speak;

(2) They bring up OFF topic arguments to dilute the discussions just to have something to post;

(3) They clam up suddenly when they're confronted with the truthful opposing facts;

(4) A lot of them seem to have trouble using their shift keys when they take matters to personally.

(5) They mechanically repeat many time their post same comments ad nauseum.

"Anytime I find myself mired in a fight that involves groups of people in Bush's America, I have to step back and take a breath..."

"When there's no reasoning with people, there's no reason to reason."

Yessiree, phalarope and SPK. I couldn't agree with you guys more. See ya around on future threads!!

Has anyone contacted the STAR with their concerns?

Curious, I called and spoke to a very nice woman over at the Star - Julie Littman. I advised her of my concerns along with the the thought that I doubted that Scripps Network would appreciate an "article" from one of their news organizations (that is clearly NOT distinguished from legit pieces - save for bad writing and biased reporting) being susceptible to being used as back-up and justification on the many questionable websites (some more Neo-Nazi and white supremacist than others) we've come across in the last few days.

She was sympathetic and promised to bring it to the attention of her editor. She welcomed others to write in to counteract the piece. I would suggest that everyone who feels strongly about this call and/or write in.

http://www.civilrights.org/press_room/buzz_clips/civilrightsorg-stories/some-anti-immigration.html?templateName=29304566&print=t

I would just like to comment that I do work for the star and the papers integrity is indeed intact. Your News is a community section that entrusts each person with their first amendment right to the fullest. Please be aware that your voice is just as important as theirs. Like Julie said, submit an article of your own as a way to engage in your first amendment rights.

Mr. Goldberg, that "article" is being presented on the fringe hate groups' websites as an article by a Star reporter. Check out the links on this thread.

I'm all for providing a forum for all views. But allowing any Tom, Dick, Harry or Adolf to present him/herself as a legit Ventura Star reporter, and present their "news"/commentary to the world as if the Star is the source - well, I guess its your paper, and you're fine with it. As a reader of the Star online and off, I'd like to feel that there is some editorial control over what is presented as articles printed in the Star, written by Star reporters.

If its presented as open forum blog, that's something else entirely.

Hi Daniel -

Thanks for posting. Regarding your comment, "Your News is a community section":

I don't think it is presented as such, with enough distinction from the rest of the paper. YourHub.com was an obvious community site, distinct from the Star. "Your News" isn't.

I'm not debating any sort of first amendment rights - I am raising the issue that the Star is allowing any content to be posted under the masthead without distinction as to origin of the content.

In my opinion, that will create PERCEPTION issues for the Star, and the fact that these extremist immigration websites are linking to the entry as from the "Ventura County Star" makes my point.

Basically, the line between user-generated content and the Star's journalism is too blurry.

People should see that Tyler is being very hypocritical and falsely neutral in these illegal alien matters in his last posting above. Any, why is he is complaining at the publishing of this well written article? He didn't like the content, pure and simple. His whiny complaining to the Ventura County Star staff on such transparantly weak and It is a smoke screen. His complaint is purely full of emotional concocted elements is like a Gestapo move to crush any opposition in such matters getting attention. Kinda embarrassing for Tyler, who like to represent himself as a Ojai enlightened progressive. PS...Check his site bio.

Try to follow his illogic disengenuousness by referencing the posting comments listed above as:
Comment #13 Posted by: Tyler | April 3, 2008 12:48 PM
Tyler's stand on illegal aliens is clear when he snidely and wrongly attributed to another poster:
Fine advice coming from someone who favors deportation of 15 million people. Thanks for sharing.

AND a response to Tyler's
faux report's neutrality posted on:
Comment #24 Posted by: The Thinker | April 3, 2008 02:59 PM

referee: you have an obvious defect in your abilty to reason which concisely proves Tyler's point. Suggestion: retake second grade reading and writing.

Kinda embarrassing for Tyler, who like to represent himself as a Ojai enlightened progressive.

You obviously confuse the term "enlightened progressive" with the term "spineless worm who backs down everytime some wingnut disagrees with him or her". That misunderstanding would be your problem, not ours.

Mr. Tyler: Why are you now cenoring people's honest and factual evidence supplied posts on this site that show you to be a hypocrite. Several people's post were here and hours latter, you have removed them? This is shameful of you to do and shows everyone that you are a charlatin and a fake intellectual on these illegal alien matters. But what would we expect from a phony Ojai liberal progessive with more mouth that honor. Your actions show just more usual progressive lies with no personal ethics!

I don't recall censoring any posts. To people who are regular readers and not drive-by slanderers such as yourself, I have been quite clear on my policies and tolerance of dissenting viewpoints. As evidenced by this thread and many others.

So, whatever, set your Outlook task for three weeks from now to come back and be a pain in the ass, and we'll do this all over again.

Well, you might not be censoring, Tyler, but we still don't know whether or not you're CENORING.

Si, Ceñor.