ojai news at The Ojai Post :: blog, newspaper, events in Ojai, California

The Minutemen are quite willing to pepper spray if you start saying things they don't want to hear, and would have no problem fabricating stories against people (one tried with me today at this particular event) so unless people are looking for a faceful of cayenne extract, avoid their protests if at all possible...all I really want to say about it. It was kind of an ugly scene.

tyler you are brilliant. you confronted these ignorant and terrified people in just the right way.

meiners oaky - read the first sentence - posted on behalf of a couple Ojai residents. me, i just posted the thing. :)

wonderful writing by Jeff and Sean.
thanks for posting.

So we noticed one of our pictures showed the "meth-ravaged" guy with the spider web on the elbow tattoo. We got curious and decided to look up what that particular tattoo meant. Among the ANSWERS

Well, the spider web tattoo can mean any thing:
1. You've killed, hate, or hit a visible minority
2. Drug or substance abuse addiction
3. Jail Time (prison tat)
But, the best I think, is:
4. It means what you want it to mean...
I got a spider web on my elbow because I associate it with life. The fact that society, music, arts, people...anything...Life and everything about doesn't spawn from one point and there is no right way to look at things. There are many different aspects of society which in a way "branch" out like a spider web.
The way I look at it, as long as you can back up your reasoning for the 'spider web tattoo' then that is what it means to you, and by all means get one.

Is it just me or does #4 sound like an extreme rationalization for a kid who got drunk and woke with a web tattoo on their elbow one morning?

Kids, beware. Tattoos are permanent.

a web tat on your elbow often proves the bond of the "Aryan race" my anti-racist friend who was raised by skin heads told me so

Sean and Jeff, thanks so much for this account! you got in there and asked precisely all the questions that i had in my mind (and got the answers i feared i'd find!).

I attended the Protest to save America from the adverse effects of illegal immigration, including illegal DL sites.

You Sean are the one who is fabricating.

First outright lie is the one which quotes me as saying," this is about protecting the whiteman. You purposely twisted what was really said.I said,"We are protecting America's soverignity and Jobs!

I am sick of the eltist in Ojai destroying my community! That includes all the tourist trade you drum up that speeds past my town of OakView! It further includes the supporting ILLEGALS DL's. How do I know they are illegal.. ask them to show you their ID. They have no id! I have protested alone at the skateboard park DL site. NONE of them have Id! Maybe you trust people who break laws coming here, stand on our streets without anyway to identify who they are, if they have committed any crimes. I DO NOT and neither should anyone who cares about their "bucolic" Ojai!

Maybe you should be worried about illegals anchor babies disrupting your bucolic Ojai instead of people trying to save their Country!

http://www.ojaivalleynews.com/breakingnews/3-20gang.html

Perhaps one day you will feel the effects directly, one of your loved ones will be plowed over by a drunken illegal,or kid be beaten nearly to death by an illegal's gangbanger kid!

Maybe you enjoy the stench raising above street drains where illegals park dilapidated RV's on the streets in Mieners Oaks, with a hoses leading to the street drain off,of course you probably don't reside in Mieners Oaks or Oakview, where we have been inundated with illegals.

IN case you have not noticed my friend..The writing is on the Walls and they are coming for you and your job next!

Our orgs.are NOT racist. They contain members of all colors and creeds. I hope to have more from Ojai,Mieners Oaks and Oak View.
For those reading this and interested in joining the cause to save our state.. save America...Follow links.

Numbersusa is an excellent source for sending free faxes to Government officials and Roy Beck a former enviornmentalist who gives a telling example of how overpopulation driven by illegal immigration will... if allowed to continue destroy America.

Here's the indymedia write up on yesterdays battle staged by non Ojai residents:

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2008/03/216030.php

Probably the best way to quell this type of brown shirt activity is to figure out the identities of these SOS and MCDC members that came up here. Here's a link to their forum where they appear to plan their rallies: http://www.saveourstate.org/vforums/showthread.php?p=295180

Pay special attention to ohighlass. She appear to live here and she should be ostracized. Standingalone was the hysterical strident one with the pepper spray.

So, as we see, bigotry is alive and thriving in Ojai. You so easily throw the labels of “Fascist”, “Nazi”, “White Supremist” and “Racist” (none of which are true, but why muddy the waters with truth) without actually addressing the issues that brought these groups to your town. While you oh-so-smugly denounce those who advocate actually enforcing the laws of this state and this country, little is mentioned about the (much larger) group of protesters which included (self avowed) communists, (self avowed) anarchists and “one world/no borders” advocates with a definite mob mentality. None of the former group expressed “anti-immigrant” views; it was a protest about ILLEGAL immigration and the policies of our government, as well as the government of Mexico which, in reality, allow the exploitation of these otherwise honest, hard working people.

I fully support anyone of any race, nationality or ethnicity that arrives in this county legally in the search for a better life for themselves and their families. That was what this country was founded upon, that is what has made this county the beacon of hope for the rest of the world.

The threat of Pepper spray was mentioned in the comments section, and yes, I did witness a woman brandish a can of pepper spray when one of those “heroes of the oppressed masses” attempted to steal her American flag out of her hands. Apparently self defense, the defense of property and flying the American flag is frowned upon by some while theft is deemed acceptable behavior. There may have been other instances involving the threat of pepper spray; that was the only one I saw.

While you sit comfortably in your little Shangri-La, those people you claim to care so much about take care of your lawns, your properties and the dirty work that would otherwise require you to skip your morning latte. No thought is given to the fact that you probably paid more (on an annual basis) for those luxuries than you have contributed to the welfare of those that you exploit in your delusional view of “compassion”. Don’t let the fact that the toilet you allow them to scrub probably cost more than you pay them to disrupt your morning. While one bemoans the inconvenience of facing reality before your first cup of coffee, you ignore the realities of those who provide that coffee.

Here is the truth of the matter: our government is spending billions of our dollars every day to liberate Iraq and Afghanistan but refuses to spend the time and energy to secure our borders. While those people that you rely on to keep your Shangri-La in order walk across that border in search of a better life, along with them travel drug smugglers, hard core criminals and, quite probably, people whose only goal in life is to destroy this country. Yes, I am playing the terrorist card. You see, illegal immigration is just too easy to accomplish. Until we put down the latte and face that ugly reality we are, as a country, exploiting those less fortunate than ourselves and facilitating the movement of those who seek to harm and destroy this life and this country we have built.

Without immigrant laborers (legal or otherwise), the largest revenue-producing businesses in the Ojai Valley would not be able to operate. Start thinking about who picks all of that fruit and does the grunt work over at the Ojai Valley Inn. Ojai would come grinding to a halt if it were not for cheap immigrant labor.

Just a quick response to Susan's denial of her statement ("This is about protecting the white man"): Sorry Susan, if that is your name. I stand by the quote. If you are the lady who was holding the pepper spray and dragging her American flag on the ground, you are the one who said it.

And you know you said it! Come on.

(Though I do believe you if you tell me it was a Freudian slip that you regret having said. I was gathering that statements of this sort are "off-message" for you folks.)

Just as a bit more research on the Minutemen - they have a domestic terror ranking already, going back to 1998. I support this, I almost got sprayed at this protest...

http://www.milnet.com/domestic/data/scm.htm

Oh, in case anyone is interested, I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of The Minutemen, SOS or NMI or any other organization. I was in Ojai Saturday representing no one other than myself and MY views.

The last time I checked, that was still legal.

I really appreciate your assumption of my affiliation... shows real lack of prejudice on your part.

Are you the guy who falsely claimed I threatened you with a revolver, in the middle of the street, in a tone meant to carry to nearby passersby?

Save Our State and No More Invasion are affiliated with the Minutemen, just do some internet research, anyone who is interested. As I've previously mentioned, they're not afraid to lie and spread whispering campaigns.

According to the Indymedia link provided above, the group which organized the anti-minutemen march was the "Frente Contra Los Rededas". It seems like they are organizing an immigration rally on May 1st in Oxnard.
Frente Contra Los Rededas"
This keeps getting more interested...

Operation Shun - I'm not sure we need to id all the people in the demonstration, it might just be better to ignore them. With the possible exception of one of them calling herself Ohighlass on the SOS forum that you posted, non of these people were citizens of Ojai, though the smattering of thumbs up and approving honks that the group received from the passing cars was sad. I noticed that most of those thumbs up came from people driving SUVs. Interesting.

Tom - I support your right to protest. It's the 1st Amendment. But I think you are being slightly disingenuous when you claim that you are not affiliated with the group. Perhaps you are not a member of SOS or MCDC or NMI, but you must have learned of their protest from the websites run by those groups. I looked at the link that Operation Shun posted and it was clear that the entire group of about 10-15 people know each other and that the protest had been planned as a rally by the SOS and NMI organizations. Also, no one in this thread has used the words “Fascist”, “Nazi”, “White Supremacist” and “Racist”. Operation Shun did liken the group to brown shirts, but that's as far as the name calling has gone. Oh, Susan did call Jeff and I liars. Too bad for her we have tape of the incident that provers our veracity.

If Susan is the woman that was dragging her beloved flag on the ground, brandishing pepper spray and who was so glad that Elton Gallegly was not retiring, she might also be the one calling herself StandingAlone on the SOS forum. She has some really interesting things to say about McCain too. I kind of doubt that the Repugs or the McCain campaign would publicly accept her support. Susan may also be the one calling herself Ohighlass on the SOS forum. Either way she apparently lives in Oakview. Susan, we never lied. We have you on tape making your vaguely white supremacist statement. By the way, the term "anchor babies" is kind of racist...sorry.

Hey, fantastic piece you wrote! Just a small problem: Those folks weren't Minutemen.

Aside from not being able to discern which organizations you were speaking with, and about 70% of the factual assertions you made, it was just spectacular. Keep up the great work!

What...are you trying to keep the good name of the Minutemen unsullied or something. Hysterical. The REAL minutemen must be spinning in their graves that you lot have appropriated their name.

A simple search of the NoMoreInvasion.com forum shows over 100 posts about "Minutemen", including numerous threads regarding specific rallies similar to the one in Ojai, where the Administrator participates in the conversation. It's not this blog that blurs the lines between the groups.
http://www.nomoreinvasion.com/forum/index.php?topic=2464.0

Anyone who would like to debate about this event, are invited to go to Nomoreinvasion.com and register. It could be enlightening for us all.

Nev: are you asking me this question: "Are you the guy who falsely claimed I threatened you with a revolver, in the middle of the street, in a tone meant to carry to nearby passersby?" If so, the answer is no, that was not me.

SPK: you stated "I looked at the link that Operation Shun posted and it was clear that the entire group of about 10-15 people know each other..." completely untrue. I had not met any of those people before Saturday. I did, however learn of the rally on the No more Invasion Website which I visited for the first time on Thursday of last week.

Be careful what assumptions you draw with only partial information.

As I said before, I was there representing only myself and my views.

I actually felt that it was a good day, I THOUGHT I had some interesting (and respectful) conversations and sharing of viewpoints with both sides, including one of the co-authors of this article.

"Tom from Ventura County"

What is your astrology sign?

We need to do a background check on you...

The guy with the tattoo really likes the south. He likes the rebel flag and Robert E. Lee. His posts on his website have Robert E. Lee quotes. There are photos of him and his group members displaying confederate flags. His group calls day laborers "savages" and groups like his are listed by The Southern Poverty Law Center as "nativist" groups.

Ask him why he left the largest Southern California anti-illegal immigrant group.

Ask him if he has any confederate tattoos.

Ask him why he got the tattoo in the first place.

These groups need to go back to where they came from and for 99% of their members it isn't Ojai.

The last refuge of a scoundrel is the flag. If he likes America so much why does he defend the confederacy so much? Of course, in public he tries to hide all of this away.

Look at Indymedia to find out more about them.

Before anything said my these goons is trusted they should explain why their boss man got the spider web tattoo. In this day and age they ca be removed with lasers.

Maybe they could hold a fundraiser to remove the evidence of what that guy might have been involved with before.

If it was a white supremacist thing it is amazing that a group that claims they aren't racist takes orders from a guy that can't even cover up his "former" connections. If it was racist and he doesn't feel that way he should be embarrassed enough to cover them up. Wrap a flag around them or something.

If it was something dumb, and not racist, it shouldn't be that tough to explain away. Maybe he was really into spiders before he started being an activist?

What do you say, will you laser your leader, or keep taking orders from a man with suspicious tattoos?

A word of safety:

If a group of people carrying weapons in their hunt for Unamericans and illegal aliens ask for your ID it is best to not talk to them.

One definition of the word "irony": when a group of uninvited and unwelcome people show up in your community to protest that there are uninvited and unwelcome people in your community.

Here's some perspective.

Someone should go over to NoMoreInvasion and ask that guy about his tatts. Inquiring minds want to know.

Tom - Assumptions corrected, thank you. You actually spoke to both authors, and I for one also thought our conversation was interesting and respectful. I'm sorry to have come down so hard and to have lumped you in with the rest of that crowd. To be honest, I made another assumption based on the general level of discourse from the others and your realitive eloquence; I assumed you were their leader. Thankfully, now I think I see I was incorrect.

I think there may indeed be room for a discussion of the greater economy in this country and how the situation has been rigged to, at times, promote the migration of undocumented workers. However, I do not feel that those undocumented workers are to blame and I do not think anything is served by scapegoating them. To often in history we have seen similar scapegoating in times of trouble. The people that suffer this injustice are often the furthest from the actual causes of the trouble. As we discussed, the problem is systemic and it comes mainly from the Milton Friedman, Reagonomics this country has been afflicted with for the last 30+ years. The corporations have been and are still selling this country down the river. To blame undocumented workers for the loss of jobs in this country is to steadfastly ignore the realities of our broken trade policies. That is exactly what the real perpetrators of our troubles want people to be doing. Don't look here, look over there--it's the brown people's fault. What utter nonsense. While that group you were near on Saturday was standing there intimidating undocumented workers and mistreating Old Glory, The Fed had been given "enhanced authority" to use our money to bail out banks for essentially gambling. Gee, I wish I could go to Vegas and play craps all night and be assured that in the morning some guy in a three piece suit would hand me my money back with interest should I lose.

While the groups like SOS and NMI tread very carefully so as not to say anything actually "racist", the old scapegoating tactics are very familiar from the days when racism wasn't so cleverly cloaked. Please don't take this to mean that I am assuming that you or (was he your son) your associate are racist. I've already acknowledged I made a mistake by lumping you in with the flag draggers. I'm just saying that while you have some valid points that should be discussed, you might be more cautious about choosing with whom you assemble lest you get painted with a particularly ugly brush.

Well said. This group tries to not appear racist but there is only so many times you can display a confederate flag or yell savages, or assume all day laborers are illegal aliens before it becomes clear who you really are and what you represent.

Over on their bulletin boards their members have names like Oldrebel and RebelYell.

Guys, the South lost.

#30, please find another psuedonym here, that one is already taken...by me.

People like Susan are increasingly why I carry my Social Security card in my wallet these days, even though it's risky. She and Sam Zislman seem to be the leaders of this domestic terror strike...hard for me to call it anything else...

No one is "coming for me and my job". My current job is helping my family start a country store. I have yet to hear any threats from anyone that anyone wants to displace me in it. I'm here in Ojai recuperating from some life circumstances that kind of sucked, and on Saturday I felt oddly like said circumstances had come to track me down, or something.

To the leaders of the Minutemen - the military won't buy all this "unaffiliated" nonsense, not when ten minutes of research ties anyone who was there to SOS/NMI. The city and state police might, for awhile, but if you start getting liberal with the bug spray, they're not going to give you much protection either. The one police officer who was there did not give me the impression that he could have controlled things well if ugliness broke out, and it almost did several times...I was there.

President Bush is not on the side of vigilante border enforcement, as the Wikipedia article on "Southern California Minutemen" will readily state. This isn't the way to win hearts and minds, folks. I suggest highly that you agitate through legal channels and the existing system, no matter how much you might hate it, rather than coming and busting up sites where laborers congregate. It's ugly and not terribly professional.

Sorry, I had the title of the Wiki article wrong. Here it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Minuteman_Project_Inc.

What I find a twistedly funny about this whole issue is that while most anti-ilegal-imigrant zealots are usually right wingers. the ones that continuely block any and all reasoned efforts to solve the proplem are still, other right wingers in the higher echelon of the republican business community.

The energy these people expend on this issue is clearly missdirected, I think, when they show up at these sites. They should instead protest at the board of directors of the various companies that lend support to those in power who support inaction.

I would like to see some type of worker pass program that takes the money out of ilegal imigration and lets people pass easily across the border.

I'll never forget when I was watching a show about this subject of "ilegal" aliens working here, a man pulls up in his truck to pick up a Mexican or another of other Indian nationality. The worker gets into the truck, a camera crew and interviewer at the site starts asking questions of the Driver like what do think of these men hanging out here looking for work. The driver started putting them down and critisixed the "ilegals". Apparently, the man he pickup understood enough english to know that he had been insulted by this driver and promptly got of the truck. The looks on all present that understood what just happened was priceless. The Irony of right-wing behaviour was present in it's most succinct eloquence in that moment.

I wish everyone would get off the rasist and right wing crap. I am 3rd generation democrat, and against illegal immigration. This is about national security and our immigration laws. I am grateful for them bringing the issue out, and showing us we can do something to stop it.

I think one of the saddest things to see was when a SOS support Brandished a can of Mace, and put it up to the young, african american Girl's face. I forget if that was just after, or before they were screaming at the High School Journalists that they were just a part of the "liberal Media"...

Sad to see, but a good indicator of how far off the deep end most of the MM/SOS supporters are

What was this girl doing? I find it hard to believe they would do that for no reason. Who was the one with the mace, male or female? If it was an elder female against a young confrontational girl, all these things make a diffence.

Another observation. It appears the protestors were outnumbered by counter protestors. So logically they would not be looking for trouble. I would say they were simply exercising their freedom to express their thoughts on this issue, just as the counter protestors expressed theirs. And so far, this is still all our rights as American citizens.

One of the SOS/NMI people is *blitzing* YouTube with misleading self-styled journalistic coverage of the opposing protest.

http://youtube.com/user/GeauxNOSaints

Thank God I'm not up there! It's truly scary how much support he's getting in the comments.

Actually, freedom of speech and freedom to assemble are protected rights of all citizens, residents and visitors on United States territory.

You are right to a certain point Tyler. But illegal aliens do not fall in any of those catagories, unless they are here on work permits; visas; green cards; etc. Just by crossing the border illegally, does not give them citizenship rights.

Which video is it on Nev?

I'd say all the ones marked "Ojai Day Labor Protest" are pretty offensive and misleading; I can't speak to the rest.

Dem Against - What about the following do you not understand?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

That was written by the first Democrat, Thomas Jefferson. Since you appear to be suffering from the exact same cognitive dissonance that many Republicans are afflicted with, I will translate for you. Our rights SUPERSEDE our government. Indeed, they supersede any government. Learn that first then decide if you really are a Democrat.

Thanks Nev, I will check them out. Tyler, of course all men are created equal. But this has nothing to do with the issue of illegal immigration. Do you realize that most democrats are also against it? If we as democrats do not think freely, what good are we? I am a law abiding democrat. I will not clutter these forums with our immigration laws, but I'm sure you can look them up on your own. Being a democrat does not automatically dictate we must condone this illegal behavior. Be an independent thinker and use your logic. We need to come together as Americans to stop the illegal immigration problem.

It isn't a Democrat or Republican issue. Most Americans are against illegal immigration. But they are also against groups like No More Invasion.

They say they aren't racist but...

1. They yell "savage" at illegal aliens.
2. They "know" the day laborers in Ojai are all illegal.
3. They keep getting caught working with Neo-Nazis, Whote nationalists, and other extremist groups.
4. They apparently said that this is about defending the white man. I want to see that video to confirm.
5. They support xenophobes like Tom Tancredo that say they want to stop all immigration.
6. They keep getting caught displaying confederate battle flags. Check out: http://la.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=172369
7. They call innocent children "anchor babies" in their efforts to dehumanize them.
8. They get mad that people are prideful of their national origin but show up wearing an Irish pride shirt. Too funny. I guess his confederate flag shirt was in the wash.
9. They are mad that some illegal aliens are in gangs. But yet their boss might have gang tattoos but doesn't want to answer questions. Why would he get privacy after filming workers to post and demanding to see people's ID. I saw deport the gang members including some past members.
10. To top this all off everytime you prove they are connected to racists they claim they aren't a member of that group.

Look, No More Invasion was the lead group. Their major flaw is that they clearly have at least one leader with racist sympathies. I don't like left wing or right wing goons. They are all goons.

Feel free to answer questions about the tattoos No more Invasion.

And feel free to deny you work with Neo-Nazis. Want to put some money on the line I have at least one video of people from SOS/NMI working with Neo-Nazis?

Sean, I accept your apology in the spirit it was extended, and I thank you.

The events of Saturday have certainly created some emotional discussions; I believe that those discussions can be productive if pursued with open minds on all sides. Unfortunately emotional issues frequently elicit emotional responses. The only hope we have of resolving some of the problems we, as a community and as a nation, face is through an on-going open, non-hostile dialog. While those at the extremes are often the ones to point out the problems, more often than not the solution lies somewhere in the middle. My hope here is that the dialog will continue in a mutually respectful fashion and grow among those on all sides of this issue.

So, Sean, Jeff, Tyler, Dem, Nev and others... now that I (would hope)have "cleared my name" and somewhat reclaimed my previously tarnished reputation, what are the chances that I might revisit your town as nothing more than another tourist? I would welcome the opportunity to buy you that cup of morning coffee and look around your bucolic ‘burb.

Here is a softball for everyone here. Can you guess which group leader said this statement?

“I can make the argument that just because one believes in white separatism that that does not make them a racist,”

Since we know No More Invasion is reading this how about we keep a tally. If they don't reject this statement here on OjaiPost we will know that they are racist.

Next time they threaten someone with pepper spray as they froth at the mouth that they aren't racist remind them that when given the chance they didn't reject this statement.

Unless they do in which case I will apologize.

Tom, even though you didnt address me directly, i feel drawn to your sincerity and compelled to invite you to please visit our town again. i think that it is with people like you that we will discover or create the solution(s) we all need.

I concur with Tom's statement: While those at the extremes are often the ones to point out the problems, more often than not the solution lies somewhere in the middle.

Any thoughts out there on Obama's platform? I don't believe it is that different than HRC or JSM, but is presented with a lot of clarity for discussion...
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/immigration/

Create Secure Borders

Obama wants to preserve the integrity of our borders. He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.

Improve Our Immigration System

Obama believes we must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.

Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally

Obama will remove incentives to enter the country illegally by cracking down on employers who hire undocumented immigrants.

Bring People Out of the Shadows

Obama supports a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.

Work with Mexico
Obama believes we need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration.

United States of America was taken illegally by European immigrants from the native residents. California was taken illegally from the Mexican indians. Calling Mexicans illegal aliens is a blatant example of selective amnesia. The solution? Stop allowing ourselves to be battle pawns for the elite and start being kind to each other. Strength comes from diversity, patience and tolerance. But, on the other hand, the more we fight each other hate each other and divide each other, than the sooner something better will come along and replace this self destructive species called humans.

I agree with Tom and other people that the extremists don't offer solutions. We aren't giving California back and we are deporting millions of millions of people including those with legal citizens int heir family serving our nation.

Tom, I do suggest you be careful about standing with these extremist groups as they tarnish your reputation. You don't come across as a man still upset by the civil war.

I do not know everything there is to know about these groups, I just know my position on illegal immigration. For those of you who want to know about tattoos, go ask them. That is the best way to get an answer. OP you cannot expect me to believe there are not racists or deragatory remarks made on both sides. You make it sound all one sided. If these anti immigration groups are racist, then we have to admit that LaRaza is also racist. There is always 2 sides to a story. From the videos Nev pointed out to us, the counter protestors were no angels either. I have to say I am disappointed in my democratic party over this issue. The heart of our party has always been to champion the poor and working labor class citizens of our country. They are being disgarded in favor of illegal immigrants, and we as Americans regardless of political preference, need to work together to stop it.

OP I have read articles on that LaIndyMedia website before. They appear to be as racist as the anti illegal immigration groups you mentioned, and protest everything under the sun. Bob your post has nothing to do with our immigration laws. And anyone who comes or stays here illegally is illegal, according to those law.

I agree there are extremists on both sides. I never denied that.

Pointing out that someone with a Che shirt and a Mexican Flag is an extremist isn't hard to do.

I am simply pointing out that those who hid behind American flags are no better and maybe much, much worse.

The point isn't for a private conversation but to show that NMI can't even come on here as a group and reject the idea that White Nationalism is a hate filled racist movement.

Admit it guys. White Nationalism is just as bad as some sort of Aztlan reconquista group.

I want a secure border and more legal immigration.

But I also want Americans to stand up to neo-confederates and their extremist buddies.

The problem with "standing up" to the neo-confederates, neo-McCarthyists, etc., is that usually they're not afraid to lie, defame, or even commit violent acts in the middle of the night, if you get them mad. Reprisals are effective and they may try to commit them in untraceable ways. To put it quite bluntly, I don't believe these people are above hurting friends and families of those who speak against them - I could be wrong, but I'd like to not see it happen if I'm right.

I applaud Tyler for trying to get us back on point. Obama's had my vote for awhile. I'm a big fan of the idea of some sort of more-efficient, better-regulated, less-corrupt work program for Mexican nationals who want to labor here. I believe that Latino labor is a strong economic benefit to America, I support the idea of NAFTA (don't know much about the practice), and I think the current system kind of stinks. It ends up mostly amounting to labor harassment, which encourages La Eme - the so-called "Mexican Mafia" - and increases their membership.

I don't know what the right answer is. I was reading about Elton Gallegy - he sounds like somewhat of a piece of work. Don't know if I'll be in Ojai long enough to vote against him, but I want to try to steer this conversation back to politics, and what *can* be done safely and legally against this sort of domestic terror. I did not think Saturday looked like a safe situation at all.

Apparently Mr. Gallegly (sorry for the typo) is a member of the United States House Committee on International Relations. This is quite informative for me; if that was his constituency there on Saturday, it explains to me a lot on why our international politics don't seem to be working quite right at present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elton_Gallegly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Committee_on_International_Relations

Tom - I think some sort of a coffee meeting/summit on this issue would be a much better way of addressing the situation. Evan is a very good person for organizing such multi-party discussions. Perhaps he would be interested in organizing something more formal that could come up with recommendations to be published here and in the press. He'll be reading this, so perhaps he'll weigh in.

Otherwise, you're always welcome. We have three good, independent coffee places here in town and another in Meiners Oaks. Thanks to our formula business ban there will be a new independent organic, fair trade coffee place opening later this month in a place where a Coffee Bean and Teal Leaf was rumored to be trying to set up before the ban. You might have noticed that we don't have a lot of chain stores in Ojai.

If you look on this post you can find Tyler's email and he can send you my email as I'm not comfortable posting it in this thread. The SOS/NMI people are watching this discussion pretty closely and they are making some rather disturbing noises over on their forum.

OP if you want to debate them on their ideas and beliefs I would suggest going to their website to do so. As far as Obama, I think we are ready for a minority or woman as president, but the issue of his racist pastor has made me question him. After 20 years as a member of Pastor Wrights church, Obama had to know his views and did not distance himself from him. The last thing we need in this country is more racism.

Dem Against - Please. You must be a troll. The only people still talking about Wright are halfwits and republicans. If you're not a troll, go to youtube and educate yourself on that issue by watching Obama's speech on race. He more than deals with that "swiftboat" type atack. Indeed, he transcends it.

D.A.I.I. points out that he/she is a Dem who is against ilegal imigration and that it is not just republicans(right wingers) that are, and that for me or anyone to catorgories "right wingers" when discussing the issue is "crap".

I have many friends across the political spectrum and religeous spectrum as well. When the issue comes up on imigration, it is my republican friends who are most troubled by it and see those on street corners looking for work as the threat: To them? To our country? ?To me personally?

I believe it safe to say here that most or all of us here are against ilegal imigration. But where should the energy be directed to improve/solve the problem. I don't see those on the street corners looking for work as a threat in anyway to me, to my family or to my country. I'm more concerned about those who come here legally as well as ilegally who are not on the street corners looking for work. This is a complicated issue made more difficult by Bush and others who don't want to deal with it honestly-for it serves their business and political interest to not pay/play more than lip-service. They like cheap labor at all costs to you and me, so long they save money. But it is not the Ilegal who is looking for work here that is the threat-let's look elsewhere for a big part of what ails us, a country misled~~~~~~

Our participation in the WTO and NAFTA serve the buisness/corporate interest of the United States, not so much the individual citizens who are losing jobs to over seas under-paid workers. This occurs not at the bereft of U.S. corporation but, with smiles as they electronically deposet their profits earned, by others, not you, not me, not any American. "That my friends"(that phraise always sickens me) is one of the real threats to our country.

As we work our service jobs, construction jobs-all types other than in manufacturing-producing industries, then spend our money for the oil we don't produce here, the products that we no longer make here with raw materials that are no longer mined here, we are transferring our wealth out of the country. The only reason there is money available is that the Federal Reserve can print money at will and discount it to Banks, so they can loan us money against artificial wealth such as bloted real estate portfolios. But we use that money to buy more product and oil from off-shore, produced by nonAmerican workers.

I would encourage those who protest as we saw here in Ojai, would do well to take a few Economic cources at the local J.C.. Start reading the Wall Street Journal. You will find what really threatens our country, our way of life.

Dana, how right you are. Informed people the world over are in alarm about what the right wing Republicans have done to this country and the world.

Down in the trenches, the non-"millionaires" like "Susan" can't deal with the reality of what they have supported. So, rather than address reality, they blame the only people left who are less influential and more vulnerable than themselves - immigrant day laborers.

How convenient that their targets' skin is a different color, that "they" speak a different language. The SOS/NMI would have us to believe that this is just coincidence. But if so, is it any better that they try to terrorize and blame immigrant laborers for their own deteriorating reality, not because they are racists, but just because these day laborers are the most convenient people they can find who are even less powerful and more vulnerable than they?

Same as it ever was, perhaps, the "Save Our Staters" are just the modern version of the last century's Southern cracker, using hate and terror to prop up a system that has already driven them into the ground.

(No coincidence these are the same groups looking for the "South to rise again," and sporting the spider-tats under the shirtsleeve that are the modern equivalent of white hoods.)

Particularly ironic when we look at these new crackers today is that the South's fortunes began to rise when the crackers were shut down.

It will be the same again. When these people, and their sympathizers in the mainstream, learn to embrace good-hearted people who are here to work and contribute, when they learn to start spending their time and energy working with the good people, not the bad, to fix a system that is not serving their own interests, when they learn to open their hearts and their minds, and reject fear and ignorance - that's when they become part of the solution, helping us all as we try to dig out of the current hole we are in.

In the meantime, when these people aren't even willing to do the work that obviously needs doing locally, for pay up to twice the minimum wage, don't they realize their protests are just an ugly, ugly joke?

If the SOS/NMI people were for real, instead of "protesting"/terrorizing people looking for work, they would go offer themselves for the jobs. (After all, I doubt many of Saturday's SOS/NMI protesters can easily pull down the $10-15 an hour that a day laborer gets.)

So how about it, all you people opposed to "illegal" immigrant workers: Instead of complaining how you are losing your jobs to "these people," why don't you just stop whining, go down to the corner and get to work?

I assure you I am what I say I am, a 3rd generation democrat. Why is it if you disagree with something, you are a troll? I pride myself on being an independent thinker and not being a sheep. I may not even vote in the elections this year, that is how angry I am with my party. Racism is rampant in all races, that is why I have second thoughts about the Obama/Wright issue. My parents were also against illegal immigration, and life long democrats. This is a national issue, not a party issue. Yes, illegals are taking labor jobs and driving down wages all over the country. And I'm not talking about field work only. Apparently we have a bunch of rich democrats here, who think the same way rich conservatives do. Once again, democrats once championed our poor and lower class citizens. They have abandoned them, for illegal immigrants. I don't know why you cannot see that. I prefer to help our citizens, not illegals.

Dana I see you are an independent against illegal immigration, and I am a democrat against illegal immigration. We have more in common then you think. If most here are against illegal immigration, what can we do about it? I'm interested in all your ideas.

If someone were to put together a political roundtable or something on this topic, I would most certainly attend, if I were able to...I'm "just another citizen", but also a capable researcher and all of a sudden increasingly more committed to sane and safe immigration reform. I have the Minutemen to thank, I guess!

Ah yes, illegal immigration, a subject that brings to mind exceedingly well-informed, clear thinking, principled people dedicated to solving the issue.

True story: I still chuckle at this one because it was so perfectly precious. A couple of years ago, we were visiting friends up in the Bay Area. Husband is a flooring contractor. All night long, he railed with the standard blustering talking points on this issue, how we need to wall up the border, shut down these worker sites, get these illegals out of our schools and hospitals, deport them, yada yada yada. His wife had a sort of bemused smile as we debated.

We were staying over, and the next morning, I wake up to see his crew coming over the house to head off for some jobs. Every one is a Spanish-speaking Latino. I look at his wife, and she nods: Yep. All illegal.

He couldn't run his business without them. He couldn't feed his own family, pay the mortgage, or bid a flooring job you might accept, without them.

Some of his crew had been with him for years.

He still stands by his talking points, though. Employers who hire illegals should go to jail. (Presumably except him. There has always been some disconnect on that point.) The illegals should be deported. Their kids should be tossed from the schools. Yada yada yada.

Oh come on, how did he run his business before illegals? Cheap slave labor is all he wants. What a hypocrit.

spk, thanks for your nod of confidence. i would indeed be interested in a slightly more formal forum discussion of these issues, in-person and with some ground rules.

i cannot do it alone. if i can get half a dozen people to join me as coordinators, perhaps we could begin envisioning such a discussion in the coming months. (for relevance: May Day is May 1, but that's pretty soon...)

Dem against illegal aliens is also against Barack Obama?

Which Democrat do you like? Hillary Clinton? Bil Richardson? Boxer? Pelosi?

I am glad you support your party.

LIke I said OP, I really don't know who to vote for, maybe no one. It will be the first time ever. But until I feel in my heart my party is actually once again doing the right thing for our citizens, I cannot vote for just anyone, simple because my party tells me to. Who knows, maybe I will write in a candidate.

Bringing this closer to home: What do people think about proposing the city council declare Ojai a sanctuary city?

Seems like a good way to make clear we do not support the hate.

Has anything like that ever moved forward in Ojai?

Here's the wikipedia on sanctuary cities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_city

I'd support the idea, but I'm not a permanent Ojai resident, so I should prefer to let those who are debate the issue more thoroughly.

"What do people think about proposing the city council should declare Ojai a sanctuary city?"

Interesting idea. Start an initiative.

There is an amusing thread on our two conversations here on the Post over at NoMoreInvasion.com -
http://www.nomoreinvasion.com/forum/index.php?topic=2457.60

They call us 'idiots' so many times, you'd think Napoleon Dynamite was stuck in their VCR's.

evan austin joined in the fray and invited them back over here. That was met with crickets chirping, save the following reply from StandingAlone:
http://www.nomoreinvasion.com/forum/index.php?topic=2457.msg16196#msg16196
Hello Evan, we are busy people with jobs and many of us belong to several anti illegal immigration boards. Our board is open and free to all with the exceptions you mention at the end of your post and are a part of our SOP. I not see why there is a problem having the few Ojai Post members you have, registering here.

StandingAlone on multiple instances of the NMI thread attempted to downplay our traffic and the visibility we have on the conversation. Well, for the record, I'll be happy to put our traffic stats for our little town of 8,000 up against this board which represents the extremist wing of the immigration debate in the US...
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/nomoreinvasion.com+ojaipost.com/?metric=uv

First to reply to DAII: My point was not that any or all from any political party other than the republicans, are either for or against illegal immigration but simply, that the republicans own the hypocrocy and the irony for which they stand for on this issue. I gave an example as did post #69-I don't know if the contractor by her story was republican- yet, her account is illustrative of the hypocrocy and irony of their stand and practice.

Also, to go after those on street corners is not only wrong headed, missdirected, but is counter-productive. Those that do, get the ire of those who oppose their efforts to out vote them. It simply is a stupid way to show concern no matter the validity/authenticity of such. Their efforts would go much further if they were to try to organize labor, bring unions back in American politics. They could move to make the state of California demand healthcare, retirement, four times the minimum wage for these workers. If this were accomplished, maybe they(the protesters) could find themselves working in the fields of California, or digging the ditches, or what ever most of these "illegal" workers do.

As for who to vote for in November? My Dog is not in this race-He dropped out right after I voted for him. I'm not a big fan of HRC, and Obama has a learning curve ahead of him, yet I trust him. I don't think he is going to surround himself with a bunch of yes-men thus I think he will be taking the best advice that any president could have available.

You sound as if you are quite young-no offence or judgement afforded here-but that sometimes things are not as black and white as they appear when we are young. Our judgements are pointive: No grey or fuzzy logic is allowed much less entertained. But a time comes when we must look at the big picture, put our abraisive logic upon sand paper and buff away those unwavering peaks and let light other than black and white lead the way through a conflict bigger than anyone of us.

I see they have another forum as well, one where reality is starting to intrude a little bit as they reflect on the fact that despite their lies and denials, oops! they are caught on video spewing hate and assaulting teenagers:

"...if they are able to draw us into a verbal battle where we lose a grip on our tempers and say things that we regret later, they end up dictating the moment, and profit from their presence by trumpheting the video around the web. The goal of goonage, if you work to that goal anyway, is to make them look bad to the public, so you can point them out as proof to support your claims. unfortunately, this time the point might be in their favor. It doesn't take much..."

http://www.saveourstate.org/vforums/showthread.php?p=296161#post296161

Part of what they are talking about includes this video, which they initially impugned by trying to claim the screaming hatemonger was "dubbed in":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHZWwrHkomc

But yes, the screaming "killer!" etc. is one of their own, as admitted by the video camera toting organizer:

"Oh, and that's Jean. No one dubbed it. There really wasn't a lot wrong w/ what she said. I'm not particularly offended by abrupt introductions to the truth. Che Guevara was a murderer and rapist (do you think any of those mutants on the opposite corner were going to share that tidbit of knowledge w/ that poor kid). His historical image/persona has been hijacked by people who seek to use him for inspiration/motivational purposes. They never tell these dumb punks who wail about "bloodthirsty American imperialism" about all the blood El Che had on his hands. He's sort of (from a historical recognition perspective) like Cesar Chavez. There's another guy who people have misrepresented. Try to find 5 Latino kids (I dare you to try) who holler about racism b/c CC doesn't have a national holiday yet, who are aware that he went to the border in 1969 and beat the crap of and attacked (yes, he and his union organizers were violent) illegals who were trying to come in b/c he didn't want them undercutting the union members he was attempting to organize in the San Joaquin Valley. And MLK helped him out."

http://www.saveourstate.org/vforums/showthread.php?p=296161#post296161

Actually I'm middle age Dana. That is why I don't always believe the fairy tales I hear, experience proves othewise. I agree there are other ways to fight illegal immigration, but you have to admit these protests sparked good discussion. I just cannot simply vote for a candidate because my party dictates so. I was behind Obama in the beginning, but the issue with his pastor and other such actions, suggest to me he may be a closet racist. And that is the last thing we need. He speaks pretty words, but I am able to look beyond that, and think for myself. Neither him or Hillary have the experience that is needed to run this country. (Don't worry, I wouldn't vote for McCain either.) There is no law that says we have to vote for a candidate of our party. In my case, I will write in my choice. At least I know I will have voted for what I believe is right.

Good for you evan. At least you are brave enough to go there and debate. I found out one thing. The leader is married to a Hispanic woman and they have a baby together.

Evan - I don't really think it serves any purpose to try and engage the NMI people on their forum. If you look at that forum you can see that it is a small echo chamber. The comments border on little more than mono syllabic grunts and thuggish back slapping. Tyler posted the stats and compared both sites. The post gets anywhere from 2 to 4 times as much traffic and they are supposed to be a state-wide movement. If they wish to use sentences and even paragraphs to defend their scapegoating, let them try to do it here where more people will see.

That said, I'm still in favor of a summit of sorts to discuss the issue with people like Tom from Ventura and Dem Against and others that feel that the undocumented migrant worker issue is a problem and who would like to seek ways to solve it without letting the grim specter of racism enter the picture. It is not the problem that are the problem, and the answer is not a multi-billion dollar boondoggle for Boeing. I think it would be worthwhile to try and include some members of the city council, perhaps Rae and Carol. I think talk of a sanctuary city status is premature.

I agree spk. Any idea of a sanctuary city should be jumped into at all. It would only cause more problems.

Sorry, typo. I meant to say it should not be jumped into.

Not that the SOS/NMI need more debunking, but the New York Times reports an interesting fact today:

Illegal - not legal, illegal - immigrants are propping up Social Security, making up approximately 15% of the current projected shortfall. Said another way, the NYT reports, illegal immigrants are saving American workers an additional 3 percentage points in payroll tax, starting today and continuing through the coming decades.

That's because they pay into the system, but don't get benefits.

The New York Times asks: "Would the people who want to deport all undocumented workers be willing to make up the difference and pay the taxes that the undocumented workers are currently paying?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/02/opinion/02wed3.html?ex=1364788800&en=89c27bd2cb7ac97c&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss