ojai news at The Ojai Post :: blog, newspaper, events in Ojai, California

now why would spk have this posted on the ojaipost?
because mac is a former ojaian?
or perhaps because spk/mac thinks it's "cool" to dis Israel as the new nazis?
or perhaps anti-americanism = anti-israeli?

who knows?
why spk?

spk (and mac for that matter)- as far as people commenting on the matter, i only respect people who have a true understanding and appreciation of the complexities of the situation- the history, the cultures, the legal and political agreements that have been created.
i don't- even though i have been to israel 8 times, jordan twice, egypt, turkey.
2 uncles and an aunt and numerous cousins live and have lived there.
jimmy carter- love him/respect him as a man of peace.
but don't agree with him on this one.

SHALOM
ALHAMDULILAH
NAMASTE

Kudos to Mac, and thanks spk for sharing.

For Ojai, I can only think: Why do our best people always go? Buts its nice to hear from them as they journey on.

SPK, when does our prodigal son return?

For El Anonimo, this is a beautiful, well written firsthand account by one of our own. What's the problem?

As far as the "complexities," I know it is heresy, but let me share one possibility: Its only complicated and confusing because you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. It makes me sad for Israel, but the simple truth is, look at it from the Palestinian refugee viewpoint and what has happened to them, and there is nothing complicated or confusing about it. Its just tragic.

I agree with you, what is confusing and complicated is to try to understand the justice of what Israel has been doing in the occupied territories. Perhaps that is because, ala Bush and the Iraq war, traditional notions of human rights, ethics, war and occupation, comity among peoples, etc. are simply not sufficiently evolved to encompass this horribly complicated situation.

But: Perhaps they are sufficiently evolved, and what Israel has been doing is just wrong.

Possible?

"or perhaps anti-americanism = anti-israeli?"

Huh? I'm not anti-American and neither is Mac. Kind of an insult there. Same goes for the anti-Israeli slur. I posted this because many people remember Mac here in Ojai, and I was frankly blown away by what he was enduring in order to help some children. This is Mac's six week account of what is happening right now on the west bank in the occupied territories. As I read his dispatches when they were coming in, I gained a new admiration for my friend, and I thought many others who knew or knew of him would feel the same.

Anonymous 3:41, Mac has moved on via Jordan to Thailand where he found some whiskey and some time to relax. He's not due back until at least the summer.

Anon 03:41 PM (does 03:41 PM actually exist?)

Again I preface with the admission that I don't know enough about the complexities of the situation from a historical, economic, political and/or human point of view to offer a solution or even feel strongly one way or the other.
What I will suggest to you however is that this "conflict" has been going on far longer than Dubya and the Iraq war.
The Palestinian governments since Arafat have resisted many solutions.
I actually believe Israel is acting primarily out of self-defense and self-preservation, with undertones of economic expansion and capitalistic imperialism. I don't call that wrong. I see it as the very natural response of a people who were nearly wiped off the face of the earth. You do know that 60-70% of European Jewry were killed during 1939-1945, and that in many, many places 90-100% of Jews were killed. My parents were among the 10% who survived in Poland.
Think about it.

spk
I am not acquainted nor ever heard of Mac.
Perhaps you can post something pleasant about his experience in Thailand.
I hear the food is very interesting there.

El Anon,

I too felt there was something slightly off-kilter about this post, though I read it through just as a human interest story. spk's explanation that he was merely keeping the local community informed about one of our collective friends seems a little disingenuous. On the other hand, your equation of the themes conveyed with anti-Americanism and with anti-Israel was over the top, and spk rightly nailed you on that one. So at the moment I am scoring this debate 3-2 in his favor.

But your latest comment about Mac's experiences in Thailand and the quality of the food there, lost me completely. There is an innuendo here that perhaps requires some inside knowledge to appreciate. Can you elucidate?

debate mon-

i applaud you for being tuned into subtleties (but not into scorekeeping, haha).

the antiAmi = antiIsr was a thoughtless comment on my part that has meaning for me but too hard to explain.

yes- mac's story was well written and interesting and could be construed as a typical pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli propaganda piece under the guise of "just one person's experience".

My comment on "Mac's experiences in Thailand" was in relation to spk's comment that Mac has moved on to Thailand, where he has found some whiskey and relaxation. I resisted talking about the women there for fear I would be branded a sexist.

A really good writer always implies much more than s/he states.

by the way, another one of our own who will soon be an ex-one of our own, Rabbi Lynn Gottlieb, has recently returned from a visit to the Occupied Territories.
Yes, it's a big mess.
If you want some current events try:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article3209894.ece

El Anon - the dispatches talk about the experiences Mac had in the Janine refugee camp with children.

Correct me if I am wrong: These are third generation refugees, people expelled from their homes back around 1948. These children are growing up in a refugee camp.

Is that disputed? Is it untrue?

"Its a big mess"?

"Typical pro-palestinian, anti-Israeli propaganda"?

"How is the food in Thailand?"

My grandmother was another of the 10%, by the way. She never claimed one horror merited another. Just the opposite. She always talked about compassion.

Mac's stories are really powerful. Thank you so much, Sean, for posting them here. I remember Mac, and the day he got arrested, and the play he put on in the Bowl. Mac actually came up in conversation today; several of us were remembering what he did and wondering where he is now. Quite a synchronicity to find his writing here tonight.

Re: Post #10 - Oops. Didn't mean to be anonymous - didn't realize that the computer had forgotten who I was. Hmm. Could there be a message in there? ;-)

Anon 9:19pm

the dispatches talk about a lot more than just "the experiences Mac had in the Janine refugee camp with children."

is what disputed or untrue?

"it's a big mess" is my summary of the palestinian-israeli conflict in specific, the middle east in general and the world at large. i also have no particular problem with any of it.

"Typical pro-palestinian, anti-Israeli propaganda"?
Anti-semitism is once again on the rise in America, Russia and many other parts of the world.
Usually as the world gets chaotic, anti-Semitism rises.

The food in Thailand is terrific, best I have ever eaten, all the way from the street food of soups, crepes and chicken to the fairly fancy restaurants including the largest restaurant in the world- Tum-Nuk-Thai, which can serve 2000 patrons while watching dance performances on 3 stages with waitpersons moving around on rollerskates walkie-talkieing orders to the kitchen.

Your grandmother sounds like a bodhisattva.
my mother was considered a saint even though i knew the truth.

El Anon:

Just a reminder: questioning or invoking criticism of the policies / actions of Israel does not equate with anti-semitism. Most of us do not have a “true understanding and appreciation of the complexities of the situation”. I know I surely don’t. But I did spend time in work-volunteer exchange programs in several concentration camp museums in Poland (Majdanek, Auschwitz, etc.) when I was younger, meeting many Holocaust survivors, seeing horrendous film footage that wasn’t available to the public, and hearing stories that to this day make my throat tighten while I fight back tears. Prior to that, I read voraciously about the Holocaust and the subsequent “rebirth of Palestine”. I’m not Jewish, but I was so enamored by the whole super-human struggle that I was on my way (but got waylaid, unfortunately) to live in a Kibbutz for 6 months to a year. Simply put, back then (in my early twenties), I was pro-Israel, I guess one would say.

However, twenty years on, I’ve seen and read many more things that compel me to believe differently. Throughout the years, I’ve met many Israelis who feel (much like we do) that their country has so lost its way to the extent that they no longer recognize it. Today, I feel that Israel has a hell of a lot to answer for and that the Palestinians have been getting a raw deal for decades. Saying, thinking and believing this does not make me anti-semitic.

LTOR-

the 50% of the Israeli population who question their own government's policies are clearly not anti-semitic.

allow me to share a story before i go off for a 3.5 hour dentist visit (thanks in advance for the groans and sympathy).

i have a 1st cousin (elder son of my mother's only surviving sibling). he was a typical "yeshiva bocher", grew up on the lower east side NY, now lives in Flatbush, Brooklyn with his wife (a chief rabbi's daughter) and 4 children (4 other children died in childbirth). his mother was a "bal tsuvah" and is buried in Jerusalem and he visits her gravesite as often as he can.

about 10-15 years ago i called him because i was perplexed about some issue about "Eretz Yisrael" (Israel)- i just couldn't resolve in my mind or heart something the government was up to, or some or several overall aspects of the israeli-palestinian conflict, or the israeli-american symbiosis, or something about some terrorist bombing in a cafe restaurant or bus in Tel Aviv that i frequented or rode often on my several visits to the "Holy Land".

i must have thought that for sure my wise cousin would have some words for me that would cut like a knife through my jewish conditioning on the one hand and my berkeley-buddhist leanings/trappings on the other.

what was my cuz'z answer?

something like "i don't know", "it doesn't concern me".

to this day that was one of the most refreshing experiences in my life.

have a peaceful day...
the drill awaits me...

El Anon: Your replies make it all the more obvious to me that there is a certain inequality in much of the public discourse about the search for truth, fairness, justice, balance, etc. in the Israel / Palestinian conflict. Can you understand how frustrating it is when those of us non-Jewish, non-Israelis voice our concern about Israel’s policies only to be pummeled (whether explicitly or implicitly) with the anti-semitic charge. It has happened on two separate threads here, if my memory serves. Many friends and colleagues I have (very bright and knowledgeable) won’t even get into a discussion about Israel because of a certain fear of what their Jewish friends will think or feel. How many times have you read a post on forums like this or heard a discussion where non-Jews are obviously “tip toeing” around a topic that they feel very strongly about? Very regrettable (and dangerous) climate for such an important debate to be in, don’t you think. I'm sure the people whose human rights are being trampled upon on a daily basis would agree.

Wow! I just want to add that I'm glad to have been a part of Mac's adventure. Earlier this year he accompanied me to Oxnard to see how I work with children in the classroom and pick up some ideas for theater games and exercises to use when he left for his trip. He even manned the camera and joined in on the improvisations. And for just a little bit I considered joining him. This is powerful stuff. I applaud Mac for his courage and thank him for sharing with us here in our little bubble.

Sean. Tyler. Mac. Thank you for the brave effort to talk about the challenges we face to build a more peaceful world. We are very fortunate to live in Ojai. It is so easy for me to forget about the suffering, the poverty, the violence that is so common in some countries. Learning to understand the 'other', whether Israeli or Palestinian, is a grand step in the direction of peace. I can't imagine being a child in this environment - children should be protected, nurtured, and not have to respond to the mistakes of history and adults. I do hope that when Mac returns to Ojai, he will be hosting an event to share images and stories of his journey around the world.

"To listen closely and reply well is the highest perfection we are able to attain in the art of conversation." ~ Francois de La Rochefoucauld

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L09689978.htm

Recently, I watched a very compelling documentary (can't remember the name) about these Jewish grandmothers who keep vigil at the border checkpoints in order to bear witness to, document and hopefully lessen the human rights violations of Palestinians by many of the Israeli guards.

Sally, Demitri, Kenley and LTOR,

Thanks for the kind words and I'm sure Mac will appriciate them.

El Anon and self described Debate Monitor,

I'm not unaware that this is a controversial subject, but I didn't see this post as a debate. I certainly never meant to be anything but genuine. Mac is a very good friend of mine and he was sending me these email dispatches that were continually amazing me. At times while reading them I was moved to tears. With permission from Mac and then Tyler I decided to share them with everybody on the post. That is the whole reason for this post. It is not propaganda, it is not anti-American nor is it anti-Israeli and as for "off-kilter", I guess I am.

El An -

first, I have trouble respecting the opinion of the anonymous. You can say anything if you know I won't recognize you when we meet tomorrow.

second, you say:

"what was my cuz'z answer?
something like "i don't know", 'it doesn't concern me'.
to this day that was one of the most refreshing experiences in my life."

So, is it or isn't it your business what the government of Israel is doing to the Palestinians? Is it your business to give lip service to the righteousness of their actions and then to change the subject to culinary matters and tell us it doesn't concern you or us when the discussion becomes heated and there is doubt cast on the Israeli actions?

I am certain that the Israeli government and the many young members of its army act out of fear in the present day. I'm sure that it is scary to get on a bus and not know whether or not this one will also be transporting a suicide bomber. But when displaced Jews moved into what is now Israel, they claimed it as unoccupied land, completely supported by the powerful governments of the world. And today, they create horrific conditions of occupation worthy of the most oppressive dictators in history. Think Warsaw Ghetto.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Anti-Semitism and the atrocities that have been committed by anti-Semites are wrong. What is going on in Palestine is wrong. Supporting the Israeli policies is wrong. Seeing your classmate's head blown off is wrong. Unemployment among Palestinians is over 50% because they cannot get into Israel to work. That is wrong. Bulldozing Palestinian homes and olive groves that are hundreds of years old is wrong. Pointing out injustices over 50 years old don't make them right.

As many know, Mac wrote the political farce "American
Dream" and it's sequel which was the most cutting edge
productions coming out of Ojai playing at Libbey Bowl.
His method to resist the war non-violently may offend
some, but in this day of TV screen sanctioned reality,
only extreme dissent like Mac's really registers.
The sure way for tyranny to succeed is for reasonable people
to do nothing. I am proud of Mac and consider his courage
in keeping with the spirit and patriotism of the founding fathers.

Sean: Thanks for putting this story on the Ojai Post.
Mac: Your story has deeply affected me. I am proud to know you and have great respect for your courage, integrity and compassion for the plight of fellow human beings.

While reading the previous comments I initially felt some shock at the reaction of the blusterous and prejudiced El Enema. By the time I reached the relative bottom of this thread it became obvious that such a powerful and truthful piece of journalism had clearly struck a nerve. Deep down, we all know that what is happening to the Palestinian human beings is a monstrosity and cannot be justified. Mac is one of the very few with the backbone to actually do something about it. Namaste.

Mac Lojowski is not a rebel...he is a patriot. He is not anti-Semitic, he is anti-injustice. And I say with conviction that he is one of the bravest soldiers to have graced the valley that is Ojai. For a (very) white descendent of Europe to knowingly plunge himself into the fires of the middle east, in hopes of bringing a "shimmer of light' to a place that is shrouded in darkness, is a true testament of the 'American Spirit'.

Before contributing to this blog I called a Jewish friend of mine working and living in Brooklyn to ask his opinion. Other than a frank observation by several Al-Jazeera reporters he had the privilege of meeting, involving his chances of professional success in the organization, he has not come across true anti-semitic intentions. In fact, he sighted a rather prominent group of Orthodox Jews living in Brooklyn that do not prescribe to the 'State of Israel'.

It is a dangerous thing when a group is granted victim status. The danger I speak of is when that group, or those who wish they were members, raise the victim flag with inappropriate measure. That group, no matter its origin, puts itself at risk of becoming the very thing they were wronged by. I know Mac, and though his opinions hold more conviction in one statement then most people muster their entire lives, he is a man who values human life and freedom of expression above all else.

The deeper issue with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, distilled beyond the sickness of racist delusions that have seeded themselves through the ages, is a political one. The story I see is not one of Muslims, Jews and Christians battling over one small piece of land, but rather one of political and economic lust. The real question is why does the US military offer the amount of military support it does to Israel. The answer is not WWII. The answer is not Israel's right to protect herself. And the answer has nothing to do with the threat of terror. No, the answer begins with the US interest in control over the middle east.

Think I'm wrong? Prove it.

LTOR-
you keep bringing up the anti-Israel = anti-Semitic thing.
I am not sure where you picked it up from in this thread.
I did not mean to insinuate it.
I did mention anti-Semitism is once again on the rise in America, Russia and in many other parts of the world.
It may come out of anti-Israeli feeling, but I do not equate them.

spk- I'm not going to reread the dispatches but it sure struck me as anti-Israeli. Anyone else?

heather- you have trouble respecting the opinion of the anonymous. i have trouble respecting the opinion of those who are not fully informed with a deep understanding and appreciation of the complexities of the situation (where have i heard that before?) i am not necesarily putting you in that category. i put people in that category who feel they must express an opinion based just on emotion rather than a well informed and thought out appreciation and understanding of the complexities of the situation (where have i heard that be4?)

it is NOT my "business" what the government of israel is doing to the palestinians, to answer your question directly. it is NOT my business to give lip service to the righteousness....

but you are correct in realizing that i do tend to side with Israel in this conflict. I feel they have made most of the overtures toward peace and have been rebuffed several times to where it is now an extremely difficult situation. if you haven't already please review the actions of arafat and the palestinian authority over the years. i know it's the past but it may be instructive. follow the money- you may find billions in arafats accounts.

heather- my digression into Thai food was a lil attempt at humor. guess i failed with you.

boy Didj- you pompous little dweeb. "blusterous and prejudiced"?
and i thought you were my friend...

does anyone actually have any ideas and/or solutions for this conflict that have not been tried dozens of times by people much more committed and powerful than us? (mac excluded)

Did you catch "Bill Moyers Journal" tonight, on Peace in the Middle East? Well worth going to his web site for clips of the interviews. I'm on a friends computer and could not copy the link--will try later.

does anyone actually have any ideas and/or solutions for this conflict that have not been tried dozens of times by people much more committed and powerful than us?

If both sides truly want peace, both sides need to lay down their weapons and walk away from the conflict. No more looking back. No more revenge. No more "diplomacy". No more pleading with larger stronger nations to step in. No more looking at the past. No more enumerating sins. No more shots by fired by either side. Ever. EVER. The only path to peace is peace.
For some people, this path is infinitely more difficult than fighting forever. I am not fit to judge - for others, at least - why this is so, but I know that it is true.

Maybe I should have allowed that comment to remain completely anonymous, but it was me.

this is my first blog entry... ever. i'm generally too overwhelmed by the blog world's strange mix of heartfelt, thoughtful, playful, combative, and just plain rude entries to participate. but, i've read this post from top to bottom at my partner and a friend's request. so many thoughts and feelings come up. my brain gets overrun by the enormity of the world's situation playing itself out on this tiny, violence-laden stage.

as a new mother, my heart turns to the children - not as palestinians, but young, tender members of our human family. it shatters my heart the ease with which we collectively disregard, endanger, or destroy children who do not share our direct bloodline (or even those who do). as adults, our responsibility extends to all global family members in need. we who do not acknowledge and attempt to relieve the suffering of others are not free.

with power comes responsibility. anytime we are in a position of having power over others' lives, we need to be exceptionally mindful about our conduct. even our smallest actions may affect generations to come. right now, israel is in a position of power and i would like to see the israeli people direct thier government toward compassionate action with their palestinian brothers.

it is beautiful to me, in our often self-absorbed culture, that a single man will still risk his safety to try and make a positive difference in the world. thank god for that. i am so inspired. these children's lives and struggles would be invisible to me if not for his sharing.

i believe this post was initially shared in good faith from our leftist brother and, though it involves serious political elements which can be debated endlessly, should inspire each of us to move out of our respective comfort zones and do something useful in the world - whatever our hearts may pull us towards.

all of our lives have been touched by violence in some way. it is time to focus our attention on how to end violence in its many forms - to ask the difficult questions of how we can each, in our small or large ways, generate a positive change and have a bit more patience and compassion for one another. to assume that violence is justified and inevitable is shortsighted. our children deserve elders who will risk their pride and act from hope and faith in human potential.

"Does anyone actually have any ideas and/or solutions for this conflict that have not been tried dozens of times by people much more committed and powerful than us?"

Aah, the naive question.

The Palestinians have nothing and therefore nothing to lose. The solution therefore is actually simple. If the Israelis would actually, truly give one little bit of something, that would be the end of this.

Unfortunately, every offering of the past four decades has been in the context of, first the Israelis take every single thing away, take more land, add more settlements, bomb the shit out of these people, and then offer to stop the bombs and killings for now and give a little itty-bitty back if the Palestinians give up everything. The Palestinians are vilified if they balk.

That is not an exaggeration. Look at the history.

And look at the farce going on now. The elected Palestinian leadership isn't even invited.

The U.S. could have huge influence, it it wanted to. We could simply pull back all aid and support for Israel unless and until the issue is settled to the satisfaction of all parties. The Israelis would have to give up a few settlements in the occupied territories, withdraw the occupation, and ensure a meaningful right of return for the refugees. If we pulled all aid - really and truly - on this condition, they'd settle it in a heartbeat. But right now, the Israeli leadership feels no incentive to settle for less than an ever-expanding concept of total victory.

The longer Israel continues on its current path, the more certain elements gain traction when they argue that the only solution for evil is to stamp it out. No deals. Wipe Israel off the map.

That's not anti-semitism, though it could easily become it. Israel has got to find another way.

sld@tlp - well said. thank you for the post.

Anon 12:59AM-

you write as if you know some of the history but i challenge you there.
you say "Look at the history".
I say I have looked a bit and listened a bit (but again not enough to have a deep appreciation and understanding of the forces and complexities of the situation, where have i heard that before?)
I conclude that Israel acted in good faith during the (male) Clinton administration and Arafat and his gang were the obstacles to peace.
Then with the rise to power of Sharon, Netanyahu (briefly), Bushco, the Christian fundamentalists, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc etc etc, the prospects for peace dimmed significantly to where it now seems like a distant hope.

I am surprised no one has mentioned the recent negotiations last week (I was on retreat so I could not follow them), or the increasing violence WITHIN the palestinian territories.

sid@tip- you compose a beautiful peace piece. it should be part of a manifesto toward peace consciousness. perhaps your new child will be instrumental in creating the world we all dream of now.

small addendum:

Anon 12:59PM- I think you are making reference to the recent talks ("And look at the farce going on now. The elected Palestinian leadership isn't even invited.")

El Anonimo:

I apologize if I misconstrued the content or intent of your posts. But, with all due respect, let me ask you a quesion: The OP was about one man's first hand, personal account of what he saw as extreme humanitarian violations of a vulnerable set of people due to the domestic and foreign policies of the State of Israel. In two immediate posts that followed, you brought up the Holocaust, you brought up the word "anti-semitism" and you signed your name as "El Anonimo the jew". Can you in any way see a counter-productive aspect to this approach? If not, I'd be interested in hearing why.

ok LTOR

let me lay it all out on the line, so everyone can see my "prejudices and biases and unwarranted assumptions".
i don't know mac, never heard of him before this.
while he wrote a fine piece- funny, moving, insightful, he struck me as a liberal-radical punk. a guy who gets some kicks by doing a "humanitarian move" and then goes gets his further kicks with whiskey and hangin on the beaches of thailand. i look for something a lil more sustained and wholesome in my "peace workers".

as far as your question about my post(s) being "counter-productive", i would say that as long as this thread keeps moving along without vicious mud-slinging or hypocritical/irrational/fantastical posts it serves some productive function.

as far as my bringing up the holocaust and anti-semitism, it seems to me they are such easy and obvious corollaries to almost any discussion about israelis, palestinians, jews.
we could have a talk about jewish humor and i imagine there would be a good likelihood that those topics might creep in.

my adding "el jew" was another foolish attempt at humor, but also identifying my leanings at the outset.

i guess the fact that i have been so active in posting on this topic indicates i do have "strong feelings", even though i may say that it doesn't directly concern me.
i guess one could bring up the fact that i pay tax dollars to the us govt that gives a great deal of support to israel, is an indication that i am affected.
but i choose to have a "realpolitik" view of the situation.
one of my other biases is that i have come to a point where i see some liberal-radicals offering reflexive support to anyone, any group who appear to be victims. while i know that many palestinians have a very bad existence, it is WAY too easy to say Israel is the bad guy, the all powerful ogre.
while raised in a cultural, religious jewish milieu (went to hebrew school for 6 years) i don't even consider myself "jewish". while having spent many weeks in silent buddhist meditation, i don't consider myself a buddhist. while having sang and danced ecstatic sufi expressions, i am not a Sufi.
it's about "human" solutions- with INTELLIGENCE and COMPASSION

peace

Thank you El, for your response.

There is so much in your post that I would love to respond to but as I have a very busy morning planned out, much of what I think will have to wait.

I do want to point out one observation that I have. Back in my twenties, when I based my view of the Palestinian / Israel conflict (indeed, of the much larger Middle Eastern situation) on my very limited experience and knowledge of the Jewish experience during the Holocaust and the subsequent quest to relocate to Palestine, I have to admit that (looking back) I was deconstructing the situation some forty years on in a VERY “hypocritical/irrational/fantastical” manner. Now, hopefully, I (and the others on this thread) ARE attempting to understand this particular situation in a “REALPOLITIK” manner - with INTELLIGIENCE and with a cold, hard, sobering and self-preservationist look at how abusing, humiliating, defiling and depriving hope from helpless, vulnerable children not only ultimately threatens the security of Israel but of our own families, our children and our children’s children. We are talking about world security here, not just those who live in or have cultural or religious ties to Israel.

And on another level, one based on COMPASSION, I think we can all agree that it is just not OK for ANY government to treat ANY body of people like animals. It never has been and it never will be. No matter what the "complexities of the situation from a historical, economic, political" perspective are.

as far as my bringing up the holocaust and anti-semitism, it seems to me they are such easy and obvious corollaries to almost any discussion about israelis, palestinians, jews.

but i choose to have a "realpolitik" view of the situation.

my adding "el jew" was another foolish attempt at humor, but also identifying my leanings at the outset.

i don't know mac, never heard of him before this.
he struck me as a liberal-radical punk

boy Didj- you pompous little dweeb. "blusterous and prejudiced"?
and i thought you were my friend...

it's about "human" solutions- with INTELLIGENCE and COMPASSION --El Anonimo

Well, my anonymous and inflamatory x-friend, first, I'd like to thank you for calling me a "pompous little dweeb". This is a compliment - coming from you within the complex context of this hot thread. As you sling your biased and meritless opinions around the room of this discussion , I cannot help but see the contrast between you and Mac. No wonder his experience has triggered you into externalizing your own internal conflict. You must feel pretty ineffectual in comparison to him. Mac has just left a refugee camp in Palestine while you shake invisible trees of words from your hidden and safe perch. You do not even have the courage to reveal your identity and this is just the internet. This audacious irony instantly refutes your superficial and slippery carriage and leaves Mac's star shining that much brighter next to the compliment of your darkness.

spk,

I hope you can see now what was a little bit out of kilter about your post. You say somewhat archly that you were "not unaware" that it was a controversial topic, but then you seem to be surprised that it generated controversy! You can't have it both ways, my friend. The reality is that Mac's dispatches -- however moving and well-intentioned, however brave his actions -- had a certain partisan flavor, albeit well-disguised by his dedication to theatre with adolescents. And therefore your post partook of that partisan flavor. I didn't say propaganda, or anti-American -- don't go there. But definitely partisan, in a setting notorious for its volatility. So for you to protest that all you're doing is sharing the exploits of a local boy rings a little hollow.

Now this is not a sin -- no need to take it personally or get bent out of shape about it.

As for El Anonimo, well, he keeps swinging a bit wildly, but that just reinforces my previous point.

On the other hand, you both get lots of credit for hanging in there and trying to express yourselves honestly and without too much animosity.

Also noteworthy is the jury of your peers -- no question where the predominant weight of feeling is there.... perhaps somewhat revealing about the readership of the Ojai Post.

Special thanks to sld@tip for her heartfelt contribution.

Sld@tip, Thank you. Your post was very important to me. The compassion you have written about should be guiding our thoughts on this issue. The fact of the matter is that I cannot imagine a circumstance where what is happening to the children in the occupied territories is in any way justifiable. I'm a fairly new parent as well, he's two, and as Mac's dispatches were coming in I was often moved to tears. What can I say, I guess I'm just a bleeding heart liberal.

I've read other people's comments trying to explain the obvious injustice away by using another unimaginable atrocity as some sort of excuse or jumping off point. It's too flip to simply say that two wrongs don't make a right, but that element is there. I have a tendency to to come off as angry or even "off kilter". An urge to fight tends to be my immediate reaction to injustice, whether that injustice be merely perceived or as real as those children in Mac's dispatches. This time I'm trying to see if the dispatches above elicit the same compassion in others that they have in me. I very glad to see that, in most cases, they have. If we can all feel that same compassion, perhaps, through that shared feeling, we can begin to find a way out of this "big mess."

i think i'll sign off on this thread, unless anyone has a specific point to discuss.
i think i've prettymuch said all i have to say about the matter

free the children!!
save the children!!
free the children!!

SHALOM
SALAAM
SHABBAT SHALOM

i think i'll sign off on this thread, unless anyone has a specific point to discuss.
i think i've prettymuch said all i have to say about the matter

free the children!!
save the children!!
free the children!!

SHALOM
SALAAM
SHABBAT SHALOM

From anonymous 12:59: "... every offering of the past four decades has been in the context of, first the Israelis take every single thing away, take more land, add more settlements, bomb the shit out of these people, and then offer to stop the bombs and killings for now and give a little itty-bitty back if the Palestinians give up everything. The Palestinians are vilified if they balk."

From El Anonimo: "I conclude that Israel acted in good faith during the (male) Clinton administration and Arafat and his gang were the obstacles to peace."

Is there an informed person out there who could give a quick, short synopsis of what was on offer during the Clinton peace talks, and why it didn't fly?

Recollection says that the Israelis did put up a pretty serious comprehensive offer, and that the Palestinians didn't agree for reasons I can't recall.

But that recollection is from U.S. media, so who knows.

Two thumbs up to sld@tlp's post. Way to go girl! And four thumbs up to Mac for his heroics! Maybe I'll submit that to the Ojai Valley News. People need to know about this, as sld pointed out, "these children's lives and struggles would be invisible to me if not for his sharing."

She touched on another crucial point to this discussion and so many others like it. "It is time to focus our attention on how to end violence in its many forms." Even in the anonymous realm of the blog I witness violence. It seems so easy to hurl insults back and forth from the trebuchets of our outrage, that often the potential of this technology is mired in the bogs of our own self-righteousness. How can we ever solve the larger issues facing our existence if the best we have to offer is pompous little dweeb. Anon, this is not a direct attack on you, simply the first example that came to mind. I know I've delivered my share of insults.

I need to state however that anger is good, it is one of the best motivators for change. And if you're not angry at what's going on, on what Mac shared, or at yourself for shameless disregard, then excuse yourself from any decision making process. It is time for you to vacate the building.

But to address a question you posed Mr(s). Anon, "does anyone actually have any ideas and/or solutions for this conflict that have not been tried dozens of times by people much more committed and powerful than us," the answer is simple. Stop fighting!!! Stop fighting!!! Stop fighting!!! The only way to peace is through peace, you cannot bomb, shoot, burn, corral, insult, embarrass, or embargo anyone to peace. Push and they push back. This is a natural law. It will not change unless the very threads binding this universe together unravel and form something new.

This reminds me of the U.S. discourse after 9/11. Our anger, which was normal and healthy, was misdirected by evil forces. Had we taken the attention of that anger and directed it at the cause of this disaster, we would have found out much about ourselves. We would have been a step closer to peace. A step closer to the end of war. To quote Dennis Kucinich, "War is not inevitable, it is learned. And peace is something that can be learned as well." -*side note, vote DK in the primaries*-

Back to topic, cease fires have happened many times in the past, and then someone ceases the cease fire. I have heard accounts for contemporaries, working in the middle east, that is almost always the IDF that shoots first. If it is the Palestinians, it usually happens after an IDF raid. Either way, the point is that the fighting hasn't stopped. It is born out of a mindset unwilling to drop the past and move forward. What we need is an old-fashioned paradigm shift. A good old mental revolution. We need the thinkers and the healers and the 'rebels' (Mac & company) and the free spirits and the nuns and the doctors and the teachers and the children and Mister Freakin Rogers to come together and demand, through voice and action a better tomorrow and a better today!

Peace, and thank you again sld@tlp. It's time for a Love Project!

Well, to be fair, El Anonimo was reacting to pretty juvenile comment - "El Emema" (!?!?!?). Which really wasn't called for (El Anonimo is opininated, but I don't think he's ever been rude or insulting). Shouldn't Ojai Post authors be held to a higher standard?

Hey El Anon: don't drop out. We all have pertinent points of view that continue and forward this much needed dialogue. And remember - we ALL get beat up here sooner or later....

thanks, everyone, for being open to hearing my thoughts/feelings. if i can share one more thing as the thread fades, perhaps...

a number of years ago, i had a long-time acquaintance who i sometimes called friend and other times called terrible names. we were members of a shared spiritual community and both tried very hard to get along. but we were locked in a subtle battle of wills, each caught up in the need to have the deepest pain and most profound insights about life. every time we entered one another's company, we drew our respective mental and emotional 'swords', guarding ourselves agianst the inevitable conflict. despite our efforts, we seemed destined to clash. it hurt my heart and threatened my pride to have both an ally and adversary in this person. i wanted the perceived safety and comfort of either loving or hating him, instead i felt both.

one night as we sat talking, i addressed this underlying theme openly and said that i had come to a place where i didn't want to draw my sword at all... with anyone... i was tired of fighting myself through other people and desperately wanted to find another way to deal with my fear, insecurity and pain than to need to be right and in control. he felt the same way.

we agreed to give our relationship one year to shift in ways that supported us laying our weapons down... and if, after the year had come and gone, we still felt that dueling was a requirement for our interactions, we would let the relationship go completely.

as the year passed, we saw each other less and less, each time holding our tongues and opening our hearts a little more. it felt like small progress and, in the end, our friendship faded. but, even when we saw each other in passing as the years went along, we were kind. kinder than before.

i can't speak for him, but in that year (and certainly in the decade that has followed) i saw clearly the healing and damaging power of my words and actions on others. i began to understand that fear of being outshined or outsmarted comes at a tremendous cost to relationships and my own humanity. i started to see how i undo my efforts to heal and grow by trying to take the short road to enlightenment, by needing to have fast answers to long questions... and so on.

today, i feel i've pulled back too far from the difficult discussions from a fear of conflict and what it seems to bring out in most of us. now, with the state of the world and the beautiful child in my arms, i am coming forward again, looking for ways to participate in the struggle without engaging in the battle.

when i see others face difficult problems openly and honestly with a measure of vulnerability and restraint, i am encouraged and inspired. this blog has given me that. thank you.

LTOR-
I've pulled back because I've pretty much said my piece, not because I feel I've been abused, spindled or mutilated.
I'm pretty much waiting for someone to answer Anon Dec 1 01:57PM question:
"Is there an informed person out there who could give a quick, short synopsis of what was on offer during the Clinton peace talks, and why it didn't fly?"
I certainly have my opinion on that which I believe to be informed by "facts" and I've already stated it.

I'm glad at least someone noticed my "dweebie" comment was just a slight rejoinder to a previous verbal attack on me.
So much easier to dis the messenger than to continue to examine the very complex issue.

Don't worry- I'm still lurking very actively and will scat when I am moved to.

Thanks for the invitation.

Just a reminder- there are benefits for two of our own today who are dealing with serious health issues:
1. Patricia Cardinale, 2-6 Ojai Valley Community Church 907 El Centro
2. Lauren Severino 1 or 2-4 at Ojai House 304 N. Montgomery

Hope to see you at one or both.
I'll be wearing a nice smile...

Well this has been fun. I was half expecting Mac to jump on here if he felt like finding an internet connection on the beach in Thailand. He still might, so I'd better correct an error before he comes on here screaming at me. The proper spelling of Mac's last name is Lojowsky, not ski. It a long running joke between us that I continually misspell his last name.

As to the question posed by Anon in comment #42:

What people are referring to as the Clinton Peace Talks are actually an extension of the Oslo Accords first initiated at the Madrid Conference of 1991 during the presidency of George H.W. Bush and finalized in Oslo, Norway on Aug. 20, 1993. There was the famous signing ceremony at the White House where Clinton stood posing while Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin shook hands, as if Clinton had anything to do with it.

Negotiations were ongoing at the Madrid Conference in 1991 and were being hamstrung by the usual problems. Namely, the Palestinian "right of return", and increasing Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. The Israelis would not give and the Palestinians were unwilling to give up the "right of return' and their lands.

It was at that point that the U.S. State Department along with the Israelis back channeled Yasser Arafat, former "terrorist" demon. They promised that he could return to the west bank from his exile and that he could be the "leader" of the new Palestinian State. Of course, he really had no authority over anything but the PLO which was known as a "terrorist" organization who's primary authority was derived from the support of the Egyptian government, not the Palestinian people. Yasser Arafat went from "terrorist" demon to "statesman" in a very short period of time. Like about 2 years.

The assertion that "Arafat and his gang" were obstacles to peace couldn't be further from the truth. Arafat was a creature of the Oslo Accords and by extension the U.S. State Department and the Israeli government. The idea that the Palestinians gave nothing during the "peace process" brought on by Oslo is patently ridiculous. Consider, under UN Resolution #242 all lands occupied by Israel during the Yom Kippur War of 1967 were to be vacated. By signing the Oslo documents Arafat effectively "relinquished 78% of what was Palestine under the British mandate. This left only the west bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza for the supposed Palestinian State. By any measure that is a huge concession. The only real problem was that he had no real legitimacy to make such concessions in the name of the Palestinian people. Subsequently years dragged on and the "peace process" was grinding on with more and more concessions expected from the Palestinians. The withdrawal of the IDF was postponed indefinitely and more and more Israeli settlements were placed throughout the west bank and gaza. One set of stats has it that in 1990, before Oslo, there were 76,000 Israeli colonists in the occupied territories. By 2000 there were 383,000 colonists on the land that Oslo gave as the new Palestinian State.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians became disenchanted with Arafat and the PLO as they watched more and more of their lands settled by Israelis while the received only excuses. This enabled the rise of Hamas which was voted into power in 2006. This enabled Israel and the U.S to throw away the "roadmap to peace" formerly the "peace process". This turn of events was obvious to anyone with eyes and the sense to follow history. Of course the Palestinian people would become radicalized and embrace Hamas when all they had been fed for years was what is fed to mushrooms. The only real question is, was this by design. Did Israel know that by effectively neutralizing the PLO by getting Arafat to accept the Oslo Accords, that the Palestinian people would continue the intifada and embrace a group like Hamas thus obviating any responsibility for Israel to uphold their end of those same accords? In this light, it is obvious that Israel never had any intentions of giving up the occupied territories.

Not exactly concise and not short, but it is a fairly involved history. Once again I must recommend Bill Fisk's "The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East" to those that wish to educate themselves on the modern history of the Middle East. The issue is really no more complicated than most other areas of Human history where people are trying to take advantage of other people AND claim that they are morally right to do so.

I'll leave you with this bit of wisdom from George Carlin:

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity. "

spk-

please explain the internal struggles and skirmishes of the "Palestinian people"

please elaborate on your statement: "claim that they are morally right to do so"

please explain how "Arafat and his gang" were NOT obstacles to peace.

please explain how much you think Arafat has/had in bank accounts and his display of Rolexes and fine cars (and apartments in Paris, I think)

while you have a nice tidey explanation, i think you may have a lot more splainin' to do.

just a thought...

El Anonimo - your tactic doesn't fly. You have put up 0 facts throughout your posts. You asked someone to answer the previous "anonymous" question. Where is your answer?

If you disagree with spk, what you need to do is lay out whatever supplemental facts you think contradict what he has said. Potshots at his statements just make your position look weak.

In other words, don't ask spk to "please explain": YOU explain, if you have something to offer here.

Please.

dedji,you ARE the dennis leary of your generation.. Be proud!! v/r ojai 4th july parade committee

Anon 04:19 PM

I don't have the "facts" you may be looking for at my fingertips.
I may not even have them anywhere in my brain.
However if you review my voluminous posts you may find some "facts" that MAY be indisputable, even though you may not like them or agree with them or think they are relevant.
To wit:
1. "60-70% of European Jewry were killed during 1939-1945, and that in many, many places 90-100% of Jews were killed"

2. "Tum-Nuk-Thai, which can serve 2000 patrons while watching dance performances on 3 stages with waitpersons moving around on rollerskates walkie-talkieing orders to the kitchen."

3. "I am surprised no one has mentioned the recent negotiations last week (I was on retreat so I could not follow them), or the increasing violence WITHIN the palestinian territories."

So as far as I am concerned I have presented some "facts".

As far as the "factual report" spk presented, it "sounded" pretty good and apparently was informed by the author he mentions. I do not know enough to question his facts. I simply want to "test" him a little further to see how deeply he has really looked at the situation.
It really is the student (me) testing the supposedly knowledgeable professor (spk).

Anon- your post was almost an unbearable bear trap for me.
Your concluding it with "Please" made ALL the difference.

What surprises me the most about the ongoing destruction of Palestine is that the tactics being used on the Palestinians precisely mimic the tactics that were used on the Jewish people living in Nazi Germany. It reminds me of an abused child who grows up only to repeat the same abuse - only now the abusee is the abuser.