The following was submitted as a guest editorial by regular Ojai Post reader and occasional contributor Sean P. Keenan. Note there are some PG-13 words in the following correspondence from former Ojai resident Mac Lojowski.
I first met Mac Lojowski in the fall of 2002. We would see him posing around town in front of the Ojai Coffee Roasters or the old Ojai Brew Pub and my wife and I would comment that he looked like he walked out of some alternate history. He’d often be wearing a kind of “Long Riders” jacket and a wide brimmed cowboy hat that looked like it was right out of the 1880’s. It was at the OBP where we struck up a conversation that invariably turned to politics. As luck would have it he was a political science major like me. Even better, we were both fairly radical leftists. While that’s not exactly rare here in Ojai, it is nice to be able to talk to someone who understands all the terms. We became fast friends.
We were both wary of the build up to war with Iraq that seemed to be happening all that fall and winter. Back then, I really didn’t think we’d actually end up illegally invading Iraq. To be honest, I just didn’t think BushCo had the ability to pull it off. It was so obviously ridiculous and the outcome would be a complete catastrophe. Anyone who was paying attention and understood the implications knew that the administration was lying though its teeth. Iraq had been systematically destroyed over the previous 12 years. It was flatly ludicrous that Iraq could be a threat to us in any way whatsoever. The idea that the Iraqis were somehow implicated in 9/11 was worse than stupid, it was a flat out lie and we knew it then. In fact, I remember that in January of 2003 Mac and I were sitting in front of the OBP saying that an invasion of Iraq would be the worst foreign policy mistake in the entire history of the United States. Sometimes it sucks to be right, I mean correct.
That February 15th was the largest protest in Human History. At least fifteen million people, world-wide, marched against the build up to war. I was in Los Angeles with upwards 50,000 other people marching in the worst downpour on record for downtown LA. It was cold, it was wet, but it was amazing. I really didn’t think there would be another Iraq war, even as Colin Powell was destroying is political career live on television by knowingly lying in his address to the UN. In fact, I bet Mac $100 it wouldn’t go down. No way.
On Monday, March 17th, things were pretty grim. It looked like I was going to lose that bet. Then I heard a rumor I had to check out. People were saying that Mac had been arrested. Here it is from our own illustrious OJAI VALLEY NEWS:
Ojai resident Mac Lojowski took his message to the streets, literally, on Monday, after hearing the new intentions of President George W. Bush to proceed with the war on Iraq. Lojowski, with a bird cage containing an American flag and a hand-made sign with the words, “Wake the (expletive) Up! America’s problems won’t be solved in Iraq,” staged a one-man sit-in in the middle of Ojai Avenue between the Arcade and Libby Park for roughly half an hour before he was hauled away by police.
Mac had decided to sit in the middle of Ojai Avenue right near the crosswalk in the center of the arcade with a birdcage with the American flag locked in it. He held a sign that said “Wake the FUCK up!” There was support from many, but there was a lot of anger against him. One woman driving a Ford Excursion (then the largest SUV on the market with a whopping 10 mpg) actually told the police as she passed the scene, “Why don’t you just shoot him.” I wonder if she’s found a buyer for that white elephant yet Remember, this was not all that long after September 11th and the President of the United States was lying to ignorant, frightened people.
That evening I got hold of Mac’s girlfriend to see who was bailing him out and if I could donate to the cause. Turned out nobody had gotten it together yet. I went down to the police station to see what was what and they told me that they had put him in county jail in Ventura ! I got really pissed off at that. A guy gets arrested for demonstrating and the cops drag him off to county? He hadn’t even resisted arrest. They started talking about arresting me. I got a bail bondsman and went down to county. The DA was actually talking about holding him and charging him with some trumped up, much bigger crime. Remember, it was weird times back then on the eve of this illegal war. They held him overnight in county jail and I went back the next morning. I started making noises about the ACLU, the Los Angeles Times and then I started asking how one goes about getting a permit to film on the premises. I announced my intention to begin shooting a documentary and was it possible to schedule an interview with District Attorney Totten. It was right about then that they thought better of charging Mac with whatever the higher crime was and kicked him lose on bail. Mac was very appreciative. He said he never ever wanted to go back to jail. I said I couldn’t blame him.
I though it was remarkable, what he had done, but I also didn’t really get the timing. It wasn’t until the following day that Bush would write his letter to Congress, and it wasn’t until Wednesday, March 19th that he presented it and kicked off the largest blunder in US history. Somehow Mac had preempted. I found out why later.
It seemed that Mac had been a student at Evergreen State College in Olympia Washington and that he had known a woman named Rachel Corrie. On Sunday, March 16th, Rachel Corrie had been deliberately murdered in the occupied territory in the Gaza Strip when she was run over, TWICE, with a D9 armored Caterpillar bulldozer. She had been trying to protect some Palestinian homes from demolition when the bulldozer, operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), ran her over. Mac knew her and had been deeply affected by the news. It was the following day that he held his protest against the impending Iraq war. It turns out it was also a memorial to Rachel Corrie.
I give you all this background so that the following dispatches from Mac will have more context. Mac is fine, or as fine as he ever was, and he’s been on a trip around the world since the beginning of last Summer. He was traveling West on his way to a volunteer internship at the The Freedom Theater where he was to teach play-writing and journalism to Palestinian children in the Janine Refugee camp. What follows are his dispatches from Israel and the West Bank in the occupied territories. His time in Israel begins with Dispatch #5. If you think the policy of Israel with regard to the occupied territories is correct, or if you would like to remain in the dark about what is happening in the occupied territories, please read no further.
SPK
Dispatch #5
Above the white beach sands big kites cut through the blue sky. Tall white concrete buildings flank the shore and offshore sailboats and jet skies cut across the Mediterranean. If you squint your eyes just right this could be Ft. Lauderdale. But now on my second cup of Turkish coffee, my eyes are wide open and this is Tel Aviv, Israel; no blond people need apply.
After a picture-perfect East European departure (the computers shut down and the luggage conveyor broke, causing a three hour delay, causing a small-scale Jewish riot at the Budapest airport) I arrived this morning at the Tel Aviv airport at 5 a.m. Immediately upon setting foot on the runway tarmac I was apprehended by two young soldiers who proceeded to interrogate my Israel intentions for the next twenty minutes. I guess it was a bad idea to be wearing my Evergreen State College sweatshirt, since they did ask me if I was an Evergreen student- ‘for life’ I answered.
At customs/passport control I committed the social faux-pas grand mal by asking the agent not to stamp my passport (17 countries, mostly Arab, will not allow you in their country if your passport has the Israeli stamp). This caused another half-hour of questioning by both soldiers and plain clothes intelligence who asked me over and over and over:
What are you doing in Israel?
“Just visiting.”
Why?
“This is the holy land, right? I’m looking to get closer to God.”
Where are you going in Israel?
“To the holy sites.”
Which ones?
“Umm…ummm (come on Mac, think!) the Temple Mount.”
Where is the Temple Mount?
“Umm… Jeruselum?”
Who do you know here?
“Nobody. I’m looking to make some friends.”
Where are you staying?
“Not sure, probably hostels.”
When are you leaving?
“I fly out of Jordan December 1.”
What are you going to do until then?
“Visit the holy sites.”
Which ones?
and over and over again.
Finally they let me go. For a bit it seemed that they weren’t gonna let me in and I was getting ready my hellfire rant of how much US money goes to Israeli foreign aid and I’m a goddamn tax-paying US citizen and I demand to see my embassy, but it didn’t come to that.
So I got a room that resembles a jail cell I once spent a few days in, overlooking some concrete buildings. I take a mess of buses and taxis and will arrive in Jenin on October 16 to start with the Freedom Theatre.
Until then, friends, keep on rockin’ in whatever’s left of the free world.
Mac
Dispatch No 6
A quick history: during the second Intifada Ariel Sharon of Israel decided that the Palestinians must be crushed and the Jenin Refugee Camp was chosen to be made and “example of.” In April of 2002, the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) bombed (from F-16′s and Blackhawk helicopters) the camp indiscriminately for two days, then sent ground troops, tanks and bulldozers in, while preventing the citizens to leave or medical services to enter for another five days. The end result was the complete destruction of some 300 homes, the murder of some 400+ people and the arrest of hundreds of others. Keep in mind the camp is only 93 acres of land and there is only about 13,000 residents, 70% of which are under 18 (meaning they were even younger then). This is known as the Jenin Massacre, condemned by the United Nations as a war crime.
Two years ago the Freedom Theatre was started by a small group of people (Jews, Swedes and Palestinians) who were concerned about the lack of creative/community/educational outlets to the children of the camp. Since then the theatre has been a major success, holding numerous concerts, plays, dance, acting and writing workshops, and serving as a de-facto children’s center with books, computers and art supplies. The board of directors to the theatre include Noam Chomsky, Mahmoud Darwish, Howard Brenton and many other prominent figures in the artistic/activist world.
I arrived three days ago.
I am running two workshops:
1. Journalism and Creative Writing- there are eight kids, ages 12-16. In this workshop I will be teaching them basic journalism skills and the end result will be the first publication of the Jenin Refugee Camp’s first arts and news periodical. The periodical will feature poems, short stories, community profile stories and news articles about people and life in the camp. We hope the periodical will continue after I leave.
2. Play-writing- there are 15 kids in this workshop, ages 16-19. I will be teaching them the basics of play-writing, the development of a story, how to move a story with dialogue, etc. We will be integrating acting and dance workshops with the other teachers. The goal is to have these kids write and stage a one-act play in five weeks.
I am assisting in the drama therapy workshop, run by a Palestinian actress/psychologist named Petra. This workshop works with younger kids, ages 6-12, who have serious emotional and psychological problems due to the occupation and non-stop violence of life here. Most of their family members have been killed or imprisoned by the IDF, and their houses destroyed. It’s a real heavy workshop (I sat in yesterday). It’ll wreck your heart to see these kids and how Petra teaches them about death and violence through fairy tales and acting. It’s really too much. I spent the better part of last night sobbing.
I have two translators/bodyguards- Nassar and Tariq, who are students from the Arab-American University outside the camp. They are a couple of angels. The camp is under control (I think) of the Al Asque Martyars Brigade, who are cool with the theatre. The UN hides behind their fences and the Palestinian Authority hides behind their sandbags. Aside from the constant F-16′s roaring overhead and the midnight IDF incursions into the camp, I feel safe.
The Freedom Theatre is an amazing place and I am honored to be here. I will be here until the last week of November. I encourage you to check out their website: www.thefreedomtheatre.org
Love and solidarity to all y’all,
Mac
Dispatch #7 aka: Apache Dawn
Last night was the first night since I arrived seven days ago that I went to sleep. At about four a.m. I was rocked from bed by the sound of a very low flying helicopter and heavy gunfire and explosions. When I left the apartment a few hours later I noticed a large fire burning in town (the camp and the town border each other, the total combined area is probably no more than two square miles). The IDF invaded last night and killed either two or four people-the news isn’t quite clear right now. They were flying an Apache helicopter, courtesy of the US and the bullets they fired, the bombs they dropped, guess who gave ‘em those? Maybe the folks the IDF killed deserved it, maybe they didn’t- I’m not god nor is any government. All the kids are viewing the bodies and carnage this morning.
My journalism workshop has been canceled- I now have two (new) play-writing workshops, we start this afternoon. I’m gonna have them read George Orwell’s “Animal Farm” to start greasing their wheels, then we’ll roll into basic plot, character development and dialogue. I’m also contacting Arab solar companies for the new theatre the Freedom Theatre is building. Israel owns the power plants and controls all the electricity for the Palestinians. There is not a single solar panel in all of the West Bank. This theatre will be the first to run with solar.
I am leaving here in three weeks or sooner, depending on the situation. Everything changes day-to-day. It’s madness, anarchy and violence with no bounds. The Freedom Theatre shines like a quivering sunbeam of hope amongst all of this. I want to stand with the light, not the darkness of war and ignorance.
I hope all is well with you guys. Keep on rockin’ in whatever’s left of the free world.
Mac
Dispatch #8 aka: Class Canceled/Holy Shit
Just ten minutes ago class was about to start- I stepped outside for a cigarette then all hell broke loose in the theatre. One of my students, Bassam, stabbed another one of my students, Faras- ripped a huge chunk off his upper arm. Faras then beat the living hell out of Bassam. Bassam left in an ambulance, unconscious, in convulsions. Faras is now also at the hospital. Both of their brothers have vowed revenge on each other and we had to call in reinforcements, who are now surrounding the theatre to keep the coming fight off theatre grounds. This is fucking crazy. There is blood all over the stage, all over my clothes, all over everything. So, class is canceled for today. Once things cool off I’m heading back to the apartment and dream about the glass of whiskey that isn’t there. OK. Over and out.
love,
mac
ps- dad -don’t tell mom about this
Dispatch #9 aka: Breakthrough
Yesterday, I’d had too much. My play-writing group, the “Bad Boys” (the most severely traumatized boys) had been fucking off for weeks. Their attention span is about one minute and they mostly prefer fighting to any other activity. So yesterday class started, two of the boys, Balie and Sami started fighting, so I threw my books across the stage, issued my most dirty Arabic curse, told the boys I quit and stormed out of the theatre.
A half hour later the boys found me and pleaded with me not to leave. They then took me into the theatre and put on a rough skit of the play they had just written; “Checkpoint Clown.” The play involves a basic everyday occurrence for the Palestinians: crossing the numerous IDF checkpoints. The boys used four characters: 3 Israeli soldiers and 1 Palestinian clown (with full face paint, red nose, etc.) The IDF arrest the clown at the checkpoint and take him to the prison/interrogation room. At the interrogation, the solider is trying to interrogate the clown, but the clown keeps, well, clowning around. When the clown has got the soldiers laughing, he grabs one of their M-16′s and takes the soldiers prisoner. The clown then “clown tortures” the soldiers and begins interrogating them, nonsensically clown style. Soon, he has “broken” the Israeli soldiers and they become clowns too, juggling with the clown, rolling around. The play ends with the soldiers and clown running away to join the circus together.
WOW! My eyelids have been smoked! Talk about art! Talk about the surreal intersection of life and stage! Jean Genet can go piss up a rope; this is the clown show. Hands down, this is the best play I have ever seen in my life. It only took weeks and weeks of hair pulling, two knife fights, countless fist-fights, many, many packs of cigarettes, and me throwing a temper-tantrum, but at last, these kids did it. We’re going through the play again today, video taping it and having another kid write the lines down (since these kids don’t read or write), in order to tighten up the dialogue. I think that within a week at most we’ll have a solid, solid play that could stand proud on any stage in the world.
After the play, I somehow ended up going to a massive wedding party in the hills outside of town. Must have been two thousand men there (in Palestine, men and women have separate wedding parties). Thankfully we didn’t stay long, cause I saw my life flash before my eyes with every burst of bullets they shot into the air. Made it back to the apartment, drank a glass of whiskey and fell into a nice sleep. A few hours later, I thought I was dreaming about the wedding party, but no, the IDF and some “militants” were having a full gun battle on the street in front of the apartment. It went on for about a half hour and then I went back to sleep.
Hey, it’s all rock and roll friends.
Mac
Dispatch #10 aka: A few Notes on Resistance and Revolution
Imagine This:
A 29 year old Palestinian man with radical views arrives in a very small and isolated, Christian fundamentalist town in America. He announces that he will teach the boys of the town to write plays and he will teach the girls to write journalism pieces. I think the main questions are how long would it take him to be arrested and/or killed?
Consider This:
A 29 year old American man with radical views arrived in a very small and isolated, Islamic fundamentalist refugee camp in Palestine. He announced that he was going to teach the boys play-writing and the girls journalism. What happened?
The people of the camp sent their sons and daughters to his classes. They invited him to their homes, served him dinner, coffee. They washed his clothes. They taught him to dance the traditional Palestinian Dupke dance. The local militia announced that anyone who even looked at him wrong would be shot.
You tell me what this means.
* * *
It has been six weeks since I arrived in the Jenin Refugee Camp. I did not sleep the first six nights or days. The first night I did sleep, I was woken by the sound of Apache helicopters, bombs and heavy machine gun fire as the IDF hunted down and killed fighters from Islamic Jihad.
Over the next weeks I grew accustomed to the sound of gunfire and Apaches (and remember that “Apache” is a Navajo word that means “enemy”). I grew accustomed to a diet of hummus, coffee and Gaulouise cigarettes. I grew accustomed to the prayers of the mosques shouted over loudspeakers five times a day, starting at 4:30 a.m. I grew accustomed to the swarms of children on the streets who would follow me back and forth, every day, from the apartment to the theatre, every day asking me, “what’s you name?” (the only English they know).
What I could not grow accustomed to is the Occupation. Nobody can.
Dig it: every man and woman is born free. This is the Gift; from God or the Universe or whatever you want to call it- born free. Regardless of your views on history, religion or politics, the fact is that the Palestinian people are not free. Constant checkpoints surround every town in the West Bank, manned by tanks, armored Humvees and Israeli soldiers with M-16′s. The Palestinians have absolutely no suffrage rights, no property rights and no human rights. At the checkpoints, they humiliate the people; making them strip off their clothes, pushing them around, throwing their belongings on the ground and more often than not refusing them passage to the next town. And this is in Palestine, behind Israel’s “West Bank Barrier Wall.”
The West Bank Barrier Wall is strait out of Berlin or Warsaw or South Africa. It is about twenty feet tall, solid concrete and in many cases is runs right through neighborhoods, school yards and farms. Former US President Jimmy Carter called it as it is: Apartheid. This is the system propagated by Israel to completely break the Palestinian people. And like South Africa, the Occupation is more psychological than military.
Look, I could go on and on for pages and pages with UN, EU, Amnesty International and a whole host of other internationally recognized organizations with facts and figures about the Occupation. But, like most folks (myself included) your eyes would soon glaze over and it would be pointless. For example, I could tell you according to UN and EU figures, the IDF has murdered 898 Palestinian children since the 2nd Intifada started in Sept. 2000. You may shake your head in empathy, then continue on with your day.
But what if I told you about one child in my girl’s journalism class- her name is Noor. She is 15 years old- a small, quiet, extremely smart and shy girl. Two years ago she was in class and watched her best friend, Rgad, head explode when the IDF opened fire on the school. Just one number out of that 898. Try sitting there as a teacher to these girls and listening to this. Listen to Noor tell you how she was covered in her friend’s blood. See if your eyes glaze over with boredom. See if you can rationalize dead children. You tell Noor who the terrorists are.
* * *
Maybe things would be different if I was sitting at a progressive theatre inside of Israel, protected by the Israeli army and the money and weapons of the United States. Maybe, just maybe, if I drank enough whiskey, forgot enough facts and left my consciousness at the metal detector, I could explain that “Israel has a right to protect herself.” Maybe I could say that, like many people do, and forget that Palestine also has a right to protect herself. The difference is that Palestine has no army, no government, no US backing, no F-16′s, no tanks and no media or government lobbyists. Furthermore, Israel has no progressive theater. Palestine does. Herein lies the keys to the next step.
The people of Palestine know that they can not compete against the Israeli army. According to the former leader of the Al Aqsa Martyars Brigade the 2nd Intifada was a failure. For every one soldier the Palestinians kill, Israel kills ten Palestinian fighters and five civilians. Israel wants the Palestinians to fight- they want them to take up arms. If you look at every cease fire in last ten years between Israel and the Palestinians, it is Israel who broke the agreement first. They intentionally provoke the Palestinians in order to engage them in vastly unbalanced warfare (aka; slaughter) which then becomes an excuse to expand settlements, take more Palestinian land and continue to withhold Palestinian tax revenues. But the Palestinians are not stupid.
As the Freedom Theaters’ Drama Therapy teacher, Dr. Petra Barghouthi explained to me, the Palestinians need a “New Resistance.” This resistance is based on education and creativity. It is based on the premise that the Palestinians must show themselves and the world that they hold the moral high ground over Israel. See, the Palestinians have the facts, but they don’t have the manipulation abilities that the Israelis do. As Hitler said “it is easier to get the masses to believe in big lies than little ones.” The Palestinians just want to tell the truth. This new resistance is to learn how to deliver the truth to the world in an educated and creative fashion and also for the Palestinian people themselves to have something beautiful that the Israelis can not take away with Barrier Walls, F-16′s and bulldozers.
It is to learn how to create an inner revolution, an inner resistance; to deny the Occupation physical property which they can destroy or take away. In this New Resistance you deny the oppressors the tools of oppression.
The Israelis can blow up this theatre, but they can not blow up the feeling, or the Gift, if you will, that these boys feel when they’re on the stage, acting out a play they wrote by themselves. The Israelis can shoot Noor’s friends dead, but now Noor is going to write a news story about it and send it out to the world. The Israelis can build Barrier Walls a hundred feet tall of solid cement and the children of Palestine will paint murals there.
This is next step.
I leave tomorrow for Jordan. I’ll spend a few days wandering around the red desert then onto Thailand. I want to thank those of you who have remained in touch with me over these lines of internet connections. Many, many times it was very hard here. Most days I went between holding back tears to holding back rage. Your correspondence helped me more than you can know.
I’ll most like be out of email touch with y’all starting 11/16-12/07. I wish you all good things and as always,
Keep on rockin’ in whatever’s left of the free world.
Mac
Dispatch #11 aka: Last Bus to Jerusalem / Jordan
Well, last night was a small nightmare- riding the bus with the 50 boys from the theatre from the camp to a play in Ramallah. It is a journey of 30 miles and it took us, no shit, six hours. We were stopped by IDF four times (each roadblock). Each time they took us all out at gunpoint, put us up against the bus and picked, at random four or five boys to strip search on the road in front of traffic.
They then tore apart the bus, dumped our bags out, threw the boys lunches across the road, emptied water bottles and were general Nazis in every sense of the word. This happened, count it, four times in thirty miles. The last checkpoint was the worst- it was very dark out and for a good ten minutes my white skin was of no help. Like the rest of the boys, I was thrown off the bus by my shirt onto the ground, then the soldiers started screaming at me in Hebrew as I laid on the ground. I had no idea what I was supposed to do- then one soldier got really pissed and ran at me with his M-16, with the barrel in my face, he turned on the scope flashlight and was like, “oh shit.”
We had a British photographer on the bus with us and they took the memory card from his camera, also a gunpoint. At that checkpoint (the last one) they arrested arrested two of my boys- khamel and sami, ages 14 and 15, for no stated reason. Keep in mind this all happened inside of the West Bank- Palestine. This wasn’t Israel, the bus/boys were never going to Israel. This happened to Palestinian boys, inside of Palestine by Israeli soldiers. Due to this bullshit the boys missed the show (two hours late), and then had to turn around and go back through those four checkpoints again. I can only imagine what happened.
You want to make freedom fighters/martyrs/terrorists? Here’s how- you put a group of young boys, ages 10-15, on a bus and tell them they are going to see a play in Ramallah. Let the boys get overjoyed at the chance to leave the refugee camp for the first or second time in their lives. The boys get haircuts, dress up, their mothers pack them little lunches. Then you do what the IDF did last night. The occupation is psychological- it is oppression and spiritual destruction. It is sick. Pathologically sick. Israel wants to make these boys enemies.
Furthermore, now that I’m out of Israel, I can tell you something. My father asked me the other day on the phone-”where do they (the Palestinians) get their guns and bullets?” Well, check it out- they do not carry AK-47′s. The militias have M-16′s. The grenades they carry have Hebrew writing. According to a solid source I asked, the Israeli soldiers sell them these weapons. An M-16 costs 20,000 scheckles (about $5,000 USD) each M-16 bullet costs 1 scheckle (25 cents).
I just made the last bus into Jerusalem, got a hostel, drank a few beers and almost bitch-slapped some Zionist who cornered me at the sink and demanded to know why i would spend time with “those people.”
This morning, I took the 7am bus to Eilat, along with about 20 Israeli soldiers, none older than 19, all of them toting their M-16′s like peacocks. At the border crossing they did not ask me a single question. They stamped my passport and said ‘Shalom.”
I’m now in Jordan, which is just a giant desert. It’s hot as piss here, but I can see the canyons and valleys of Petra, which i will enter tomorrow.
Thanks for looking out. I’m glad we didn’t need to take drastic measures. I hope Khamel and sami get released soon.
lots of love,
mac
{ 112 comments }
now why would spk have this posted on the ojaipost?
because mac is a former ojaian?
or perhaps because spk/mac thinks it’s “cool” to dis Israel as the new nazis?
or perhaps anti-americanism = anti-israeli?
who knows?
why spk?
spk (and mac for that matter)- as far as people commenting on the matter, i only respect people who have a true understanding and appreciation of the complexities of the situation- the history, the cultures, the legal and political agreements that have been created.
i don’t- even though i have been to israel 8 times, jordan twice, egypt, turkey.
2 uncles and an aunt and numerous cousins live and have lived there.
jimmy carter- love him/respect him as a man of peace.
but don’t agree with him on this one.
SHALOM
ALHAMDULILAH
NAMASTE
Kudos to Mac, and thanks spk for sharing.
For Ojai, I can only think: Why do our best people always go? Buts its nice to hear from them as they journey on.
SPK, when does our prodigal son return?
For El Anonimo, this is a beautiful, well written firsthand account by one of our own. What’s the problem?
As far as the “complexities,” I know it is heresy, but let me share one possibility: Its only complicated and confusing because you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. It makes me sad for Israel, but the simple truth is, look at it from the Palestinian refugee viewpoint and what has happened to them, and there is nothing complicated or confusing about it. Its just tragic.
I agree with you, what is confusing and complicated is to try to understand the justice of what Israel has been doing in the occupied territories. Perhaps that is because, ala Bush and the Iraq war, traditional notions of human rights, ethics, war and occupation, comity among peoples, etc. are simply not sufficiently evolved to encompass this horribly complicated situation.
But: Perhaps they are sufficiently evolved, and what Israel has been doing is just wrong.
Possible?
“or perhaps anti-americanism = anti-israeli?”
Huh? I’m not anti-American and neither is Mac. Kind of an insult there. Same goes for the anti-Israeli slur. I posted this because many people remember Mac here in Ojai, and I was frankly blown away by what he was enduring in order to help some children. This is Mac’s six week account of what is happening right now on the west bank in the occupied territories. As I read his dispatches when they were coming in, I gained a new admiration for my friend, and I thought many others who knew or knew of him would feel the same.
Anonymous 3:41, Mac has moved on via Jordan to Thailand where he found some whiskey and some time to relax. He’s not due back until at least the summer.
Anon 03:41 PM (does 03:41 PM actually exist?)
Again I preface with the admission that I don’t know enough about the complexities of the situation from a historical, economic, political and/or human point of view to offer a solution or even feel strongly one way or the other.
What I will suggest to you however is that this “conflict” has been going on far longer than Dubya and the Iraq war.
The Palestinian governments since Arafat have resisted many solutions.
I actually believe Israel is acting primarily out of self-defense and self-preservation, with undertones of economic expansion and capitalistic imperialism. I don’t call that wrong. I see it as the very natural response of a people who were nearly wiped off the face of the earth. You do know that 60-70% of European Jewry were killed during 1939-1945, and that in many, many places 90-100% of Jews were killed. My parents were among the 10% who survived in Poland.
Think about it.
spk
I am not acquainted nor ever heard of Mac.
Perhaps you can post something pleasant about his experience in Thailand.
I hear the food is very interesting there.
El Anon,
I too felt there was something slightly off-kilter about this post, though I read it through just as a human interest story. spk’s explanation that he was merely keeping the local community informed about one of our collective friends seems a little disingenuous. On the other hand, your equation of the themes conveyed with anti-Americanism and with anti-Israel was over the top, and spk rightly nailed you on that one. So at the moment I am scoring this debate 3-2 in his favor.
But your latest comment about Mac’s experiences in Thailand and the quality of the food there, lost me completely. There is an innuendo here that perhaps requires some inside knowledge to appreciate. Can you elucidate?
debate mon-
i applaud you for being tuned into subtleties (but not into scorekeeping, haha).
the antiAmi = antiIsr was a thoughtless comment on my part that has meaning for me but too hard to explain.
yes- mac’s story was well written and interesting and could be construed as a typical pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli propaganda piece under the guise of “just one person’s experience”.
My comment on “Mac’s experiences in Thailand” was in relation to spk’s comment that Mac has moved on to Thailand, where he has found some whiskey and relaxation. I resisted talking about the women there for fear I would be branded a sexist.
A really good writer always implies much more than s/he states.
by the way, another one of our own who will soon be an ex-one of our own, Rabbi Lynn Gottlieb, has recently returned from a visit to the Occupied Territories.
Yes, it’s a big mess.
If you want some current events try:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article3209894.ece
El Anon – the dispatches talk about the experiences Mac had in the Janine refugee camp with children.
Correct me if I am wrong: These are third generation refugees, people expelled from their homes back around 1948. These children are growing up in a refugee camp.
Is that disputed? Is it untrue?
“Its a big mess”?
“Typical pro-palestinian, anti-Israeli propaganda”?
“How is the food in Thailand?”
My grandmother was another of the 10%, by the way. She never claimed one horror merited another. Just the opposite. She always talked about compassion.
Mac’s stories are really powerful. Thank you so much, Sean, for posting them here. I remember Mac, and the day he got arrested, and the play he put on in the Bowl. Mac actually came up in conversation today; several of us were remembering what he did and wondering where he is now. Quite a synchronicity to find his writing here tonight.
Re: Post #10 – Oops. Didn’t mean to be anonymous – didn’t realize that the computer had forgotten who I was. Hmm. Could there be a message in there?
Anon 9:19pm
the dispatches talk about a lot more than just “the experiences Mac had in the Janine refugee camp with children.”
is what disputed or untrue?
“it’s a big mess” is my summary of the palestinian-israeli conflict in specific, the middle east in general and the world at large. i also have no particular problem with any of it.
“Typical pro-palestinian, anti-Israeli propaganda”?
Anti-semitism is once again on the rise in America, Russia and many other parts of the world.
Usually as the world gets chaotic, anti-Semitism rises.
The food in Thailand is terrific, best I have ever eaten, all the way from the street food of soups, crepes and chicken to the fairly fancy restaurants including the largest restaurant in the world- Tum-Nuk-Thai, which can serve 2000 patrons while watching dance performances on 3 stages with waitpersons moving around on rollerskates walkie-talkieing orders to the kitchen.
Your grandmother sounds like a bodhisattva.
my mother was considered a saint even though i knew the truth.
El Anon:
Just a reminder: questioning or invoking criticism of the policies / actions of Israel does not equate with anti-semitism. Most of us do not have a “true understanding and appreciation of the complexities of the situation”. I know I surely don’t. But I did spend time in work-volunteer exchange programs in several concentration camp museums in Poland (Majdanek, Auschwitz, etc.) when I was younger, meeting many Holocaust survivors, seeing horrendous film footage that wasn’t available to the public, and hearing stories that to this day make my throat tighten while I fight back tears. Prior to that, I read voraciously about the Holocaust and the subsequent “rebirth of Palestine”. I’m not Jewish, but I was so enamored by the whole super-human struggle that I was on my way (but got waylaid, unfortunately) to live in a Kibbutz for 6 months to a year. Simply put, back then (in my early twenties), I was pro-Israel, I guess one would say.
However, twenty years on, I’ve seen and read many more things that compel me to believe differently. Throughout the years, I’ve met many Israelis who feel (much like we do) that their country has so lost its way to the extent that they no longer recognize it. Today, I feel that Israel has a hell of a lot to answer for and that the Palestinians have been getting a raw deal for decades. Saying, thinking and believing this does not make me anti-semitic.
LTOR-
the 50% of the Israeli population who question their own government’s policies are clearly not anti-semitic.
allow me to share a story before i go off for a 3.5 hour dentist visit (thanks in advance for the groans and sympathy).
i have a 1st cousin (elder son of my mother’s only surviving sibling). he was a typical “yeshiva bocher”, grew up on the lower east side NY, now lives in Flatbush, Brooklyn with his wife (a chief rabbi’s daughter) and 4 children (4 other children died in childbirth). his mother was a “bal tsuvah” and is buried in Jerusalem and he visits her gravesite as often as he can.
about 10-15 years ago i called him because i was perplexed about some issue about “Eretz Yisrael” (Israel)- i just couldn’t resolve in my mind or heart something the government was up to, or some or several overall aspects of the israeli-palestinian conflict, or the israeli-american symbiosis, or something about some terrorist bombing in a cafe restaurant or bus in Tel Aviv that i frequented or rode often on my several visits to the “Holy Land”.
i must have thought that for sure my wise cousin would have some words for me that would cut like a knife through my jewish conditioning on the one hand and my berkeley-buddhist leanings/trappings on the other.
what was my cuz’z answer?
something like “i don’t know”, “it doesn’t concern me”.
to this day that was one of the most refreshing experiences in my life.
have a peaceful day…
the drill awaits me…
El Anon: Your replies make it all the more obvious to me that there is a certain inequality in much of the public discourse about the search for truth, fairness, justice, balance, etc. in the Israel / Palestinian conflict. Can you understand how frustrating it is when those of us non-Jewish, non-Israelis voice our concern about Israel’s policies only to be pummeled (whether explicitly or implicitly) with the anti-semitic charge. It has happened on two separate threads here, if my memory serves. Many friends and colleagues I have (very bright and knowledgeable) won’t even get into a discussion about Israel because of a certain fear of what their Jewish friends will think or feel. How many times have you read a post on forums like this or heard a discussion where non-Jews are obviously “tip toeing” around a topic that they feel very strongly about? Very regrettable (and dangerous) climate for such an important debate to be in, don’t you think. I’m sure the people whose human rights are being trampled upon on a daily basis would agree.
Wow! I just want to add that I’m glad to have been a part of Mac’s adventure. Earlier this year he accompanied me to Oxnard to see how I work with children in the classroom and pick up some ideas for theater games and exercises to use when he left for his trip. He even manned the camera and joined in on the improvisations. And for just a little bit I considered joining him. This is powerful stuff. I applaud Mac for his courage and thank him for sharing with us here in our little bubble.
Sean. Tyler. Mac. Thank you for the brave effort to talk about the challenges we face to build a more peaceful world. We are very fortunate to live in Ojai. It is so easy for me to forget about the suffering, the poverty, the violence that is so common in some countries. Learning to understand the ‘other’, whether Israeli or Palestinian, is a grand step in the direction of peace. I can’t imagine being a child in this environment – children should be protected, nurtured, and not have to respond to the mistakes of history and adults. I do hope that when Mac returns to Ojai, he will be hosting an event to share images and stories of his journey around the world.
“To listen closely and reply well is the highest perfection we are able to attain in the art of conversation.” ~ Francois de La Rochefoucauld
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L09689978.htm
Recently, I watched a very compelling documentary (can’t remember the name) about these Jewish grandmothers who keep vigil at the border checkpoints in order to bear witness to, document and hopefully lessen the human rights violations of Palestinians by many of the Israeli guards.
Sally, Demitri, Kenley and LTOR,
Thanks for the kind words and I’m sure Mac will appriciate them.
El Anon and self described Debate Monitor,
I’m not unaware that this is a controversial subject, but I didn’t see this post as a debate. I certainly never meant to be anything but genuine. Mac is a very good friend of mine and he was sending me these email dispatches that were continually amazing me. At times while reading them I was moved to tears. With permission from Mac and then Tyler I decided to share them with everybody on the post. That is the whole reason for this post. It is not propaganda, it is not anti-American nor is it anti-Israeli and as for “off-kilter”, I guess I am.
El An -
first, I have trouble respecting the opinion of the anonymous. You can say anything if you know I won’t recognize you when we meet tomorrow.
second, you say:
“what was my cuz’z answer?
something like “i don’t know”, ‘it doesn’t concern me’.
to this day that was one of the most refreshing experiences in my life.”
So, is it or isn’t it your business what the government of Israel is doing to the Palestinians? Is it your business to give lip service to the righteousness of their actions and then to change the subject to culinary matters and tell us it doesn’t concern you or us when the discussion becomes heated and there is doubt cast on the Israeli actions?
I am certain that the Israeli government and the many young members of its army act out of fear in the present day. I’m sure that it is scary to get on a bus and not know whether or not this one will also be transporting a suicide bomber. But when displaced Jews moved into what is now Israel, they claimed it as unoccupied land, completely supported by the powerful governments of the world. And today, they create horrific conditions of occupation worthy of the most oppressive dictators in history. Think Warsaw Ghetto.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Anti-Semitism and the atrocities that have been committed by anti-Semites are wrong. What is going on in Palestine is wrong. Supporting the Israeli policies is wrong. Seeing your classmate’s head blown off is wrong. Unemployment among Palestinians is over 50% because they cannot get into Israel to work. That is wrong. Bulldozing Palestinian homes and olive groves that are hundreds of years old is wrong. Pointing out injustices over 50 years old don’t make them right.
As many know, Mac wrote the political farce “American
Dream” and it’s sequel which was the most cutting edge
productions coming out of Ojai playing at Libbey Bowl.
His method to resist the war non-violently may offend
some, but in this day of TV screen sanctioned reality,
only extreme dissent like Mac’s really registers.
The sure way for tyranny to succeed is for reasonable people
to do nothing. I am proud of Mac and consider his courage
in keeping with the spirit and patriotism of the founding fathers.
Sean: Thanks for putting this story on the Ojai Post.
Mac: Your story has deeply affected me. I am proud to know you and have great respect for your courage, integrity and compassion for the plight of fellow human beings.
While reading the previous comments I initially felt some shock at the reaction of the blusterous and prejudiced El Enema. By the time I reached the relative bottom of this thread it became obvious that such a powerful and truthful piece of journalism had clearly struck a nerve. Deep down, we all know that what is happening to the Palestinian human beings is a monstrosity and cannot be justified. Mac is one of the very few with the backbone to actually do something about it. Namaste.
Mac Lojowski is not a rebel…he is a patriot. He is not anti-Semitic, he is anti-injustice. And I say with conviction that he is one of the bravest soldiers to have graced the valley that is Ojai. For a (very) white descendent of Europe to knowingly plunge himself into the fires of the middle east, in hopes of bringing a “shimmer of light’ to a place that is shrouded in darkness, is a true testament of the ‘American Spirit’.
Before contributing to this blog I called a Jewish friend of mine working and living in Brooklyn to ask his opinion. Other than a frank observation by several Al-Jazeera reporters he had the privilege of meeting, involving his chances of professional success in the organization, he has not come across true anti-semitic intentions. In fact, he sighted a rather prominent group of Orthodox Jews living in Brooklyn that do not prescribe to the ‘State of Israel’.
It is a dangerous thing when a group is granted victim status. The danger I speak of is when that group, or those who wish they were members, raise the victim flag with inappropriate measure. That group, no matter its origin, puts itself at risk of becoming the very thing they were wronged by. I know Mac, and though his opinions hold more conviction in one statement then most people muster their entire lives, he is a man who values human life and freedom of expression above all else.
The deeper issue with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, distilled beyond the sickness of racist delusions that have seeded themselves through the ages, is a political one. The story I see is not one of Muslims, Jews and Christians battling over one small piece of land, but rather one of political and economic lust. The real question is why does the US military offer the amount of military support it does to Israel. The answer is not WWII. The answer is not Israel’s right to protect herself. And the answer has nothing to do with the threat of terror. No, the answer begins with the US interest in control over the middle east.
Think I’m wrong? Prove it.
LTOR-
you keep bringing up the anti-Israel = anti-Semitic thing.
I am not sure where you picked it up from in this thread.
I did not mean to insinuate it.
I did mention anti-Semitism is once again on the rise in America, Russia and in many other parts of the world.
It may come out of anti-Israeli feeling, but I do not equate them.
spk- I’m not going to reread the dispatches but it sure struck me as anti-Israeli. Anyone else?
heather- you have trouble respecting the opinion of the anonymous. i have trouble respecting the opinion of those who are not fully informed with a deep understanding and appreciation of the complexities of the situation (where have i heard that before?) i am not necesarily putting you in that category. i put people in that category who feel they must express an opinion based just on emotion rather than a well informed and thought out appreciation and understanding of the complexities of the situation (where have i heard that be4?)
it is NOT my “business” what the government of israel is doing to the palestinians, to answer your question directly. it is NOT my business to give lip service to the righteousness….
but you are correct in realizing that i do tend to side with Israel in this conflict. I feel they have made most of the overtures toward peace and have been rebuffed several times to where it is now an extremely difficult situation. if you haven’t already please review the actions of arafat and the palestinian authority over the years. i know it’s the past but it may be instructive. follow the money- you may find billions in arafats accounts.
heather- my digression into Thai food was a lil attempt at humor. guess i failed with you.
boy Didj- you pompous little dweeb. “blusterous and prejudiced”?
and i thought you were my friend…
does anyone actually have any ideas and/or solutions for this conflict that have not been tried dozens of times by people much more committed and powerful than us? (mac excluded)
Did you catch “Bill Moyers Journal” tonight, on Peace in the Middle East? Well worth going to his web site for clips of the interviews. I’m on a friends computer and could not copy the link–will try later.
does anyone actually have any ideas and/or solutions for this conflict that have not been tried dozens of times by people much more committed and powerful than us?
If both sides truly want peace, both sides need to lay down their weapons and walk away from the conflict. No more looking back. No more revenge. No more “diplomacy”. No more pleading with larger stronger nations to step in. No more looking at the past. No more enumerating sins. No more shots by fired by either side. Ever. EVER. The only path to peace is peace.
For some people, this path is infinitely more difficult than fighting forever. I am not fit to judge – for others, at least – why this is so, but I know that it is true.
Maybe I should have allowed that comment to remain completely anonymous, but it was me.
this is my first blog entry… ever. i’m generally too overwhelmed by the blog world’s strange mix of heartfelt, thoughtful, playful, combative, and just plain rude entries to participate. but, i’ve read this post from top to bottom at my partner and a friend’s request. so many thoughts and feelings come up. my brain gets overrun by the enormity of the world’s situation playing itself out on this tiny, violence-laden stage.
as a new mother, my heart turns to the children – not as palestinians, but young, tender members of our human family. it shatters my heart the ease with which we collectively disregard, endanger, or destroy children who do not share our direct bloodline (or even those who do). as adults, our responsibility extends to all global family members in need. we who do not acknowledge and attempt to relieve the suffering of others are not free.
with power comes responsibility. anytime we are in a position of having power over others’ lives, we need to be exceptionally mindful about our conduct. even our smallest actions may affect generations to come. right now, israel is in a position of power and i would like to see the israeli people direct thier government toward compassionate action with their palestinian brothers.
it is beautiful to me, in our often self-absorbed culture, that a single man will still risk his safety to try and make a positive difference in the world. thank god for that. i am so inspired. these children’s lives and struggles would be invisible to me if not for his sharing.
i believe this post was initially shared in good faith from our leftist brother and, though it involves serious political elements which can be debated endlessly, should inspire each of us to move out of our respective comfort zones and do something useful in the world – whatever our hearts may pull us towards.
all of our lives have been touched by violence in some way. it is time to focus our attention on how to end violence in its many forms – to ask the difficult questions of how we can each, in our small or large ways, generate a positive change and have a bit more patience and compassion for one another. to assume that violence is justified and inevitable is shortsighted. our children deserve elders who will risk their pride and act from hope and faith in human potential.
“Does anyone actually have any ideas and/or solutions for this conflict that have not been tried dozens of times by people much more committed and powerful than us?”
Aah, the naive question.
The Palestinians have nothing and therefore nothing to lose. The solution therefore is actually simple. If the Israelis would actually, truly give one little bit of something, that would be the end of this.
Unfortunately, every offering of the past four decades has been in the context of, first the Israelis take every single thing away, take more land, add more settlements, bomb the shit out of these people, and then offer to stop the bombs and killings for now and give a little itty-bitty back if the Palestinians give up everything. The Palestinians are vilified if they balk.
That is not an exaggeration. Look at the history.
And look at the farce going on now. The elected Palestinian leadership isn’t even invited.
The U.S. could have huge influence, it it wanted to. We could simply pull back all aid and support for Israel unless and until the issue is settled to the satisfaction of all parties. The Israelis would have to give up a few settlements in the occupied territories, withdraw the occupation, and ensure a meaningful right of return for the refugees. If we pulled all aid – really and truly – on this condition, they’d settle it in a heartbeat. But right now, the Israeli leadership feels no incentive to settle for less than an ever-expanding concept of total victory.
The longer Israel continues on its current path, the more certain elements gain traction when they argue that the only solution for evil is to stamp it out. No deals. Wipe Israel off the map.
That’s not anti-semitism, though it could easily become it. Israel has got to find another way.
sld@tlp – well said. thank you for the post.
Anon 12:59AM-
you write as if you know some of the history but i challenge you there.
you say “Look at the history”.
I say I have looked a bit and listened a bit (but again not enough to have a deep appreciation and understanding of the forces and complexities of the situation, where have i heard that before?)
I conclude that Israel acted in good faith during the (male) Clinton administration and Arafat and his gang were the obstacles to peace.
Then with the rise to power of Sharon, Netanyahu (briefly), Bushco, the Christian fundamentalists, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc etc etc, the prospects for peace dimmed significantly to where it now seems like a distant hope.
I am surprised no one has mentioned the recent negotiations last week (I was on retreat so I could not follow them), or the increasing violence WITHIN the palestinian territories.
sid@tip- you compose a beautiful peace piece. it should be part of a manifesto toward peace consciousness. perhaps your new child will be instrumental in creating the world we all dream of now.
small addendum:
Anon 12:59PM- I think you are making reference to the recent talks (“And look at the farce going on now. The elected Palestinian leadership isn’t even invited.”)
El Anonimo:
I apologize if I misconstrued the content or intent of your posts. But, with all due respect, let me ask you a quesion: The OP was about one man’s first hand, personal account of what he saw as extreme humanitarian violations of a vulnerable set of people due to the domestic and foreign policies of the State of Israel. In two immediate posts that followed, you brought up the Holocaust, you brought up the word “anti-semitism” and you signed your name as “El Anonimo the jew”. Can you in any way see a counter-productive aspect to this approach? If not, I’d be interested in hearing why.
ok LTOR
let me lay it all out on the line, so everyone can see my “prejudices and biases and unwarranted assumptions”.
i don’t know mac, never heard of him before this.
while he wrote a fine piece- funny, moving, insightful, he struck me as a liberal-radical punk. a guy who gets some kicks by doing a “humanitarian move” and then goes gets his further kicks with whiskey and hangin on the beaches of thailand. i look for something a lil more sustained and wholesome in my “peace workers”.
as far as your question about my post(s) being “counter-productive”, i would say that as long as this thread keeps moving along without vicious mud-slinging or hypocritical/irrational/fantastical posts it serves some productive function.
as far as my bringing up the holocaust and anti-semitism, it seems to me they are such easy and obvious corollaries to almost any discussion about israelis, palestinians, jews.
we could have a talk about jewish humor and i imagine there would be a good likelihood that those topics might creep in.
my adding “el jew” was another foolish attempt at humor, but also identifying my leanings at the outset.
i guess the fact that i have been so active in posting on this topic indicates i do have “strong feelings”, even though i may say that it doesn’t directly concern me.
i guess one could bring up the fact that i pay tax dollars to the us govt that gives a great deal of support to israel, is an indication that i am affected.
but i choose to have a “realpolitik” view of the situation.
one of my other biases is that i have come to a point where i see some liberal-radicals offering reflexive support to anyone, any group who appear to be victims. while i know that many palestinians have a very bad existence, it is WAY too easy to say Israel is the bad guy, the all powerful ogre.
while raised in a cultural, religious jewish milieu (went to hebrew school for 6 years) i don’t even consider myself “jewish”. while having spent many weeks in silent buddhist meditation, i don’t consider myself a buddhist. while having sang and danced ecstatic sufi expressions, i am not a Sufi.
it’s about “human” solutions- with INTELLIGENCE and COMPASSION
peace
Thank you El, for your response.
There is so much in your post that I would love to respond to but as I have a very busy morning planned out, much of what I think will have to wait.
I do want to point out one observation that I have. Back in my twenties, when I based my view of the Palestinian / Israel conflict (indeed, of the much larger Middle Eastern situation) on my very limited experience and knowledge of the Jewish experience during the Holocaust and the subsequent quest to relocate to Palestine, I have to admit that (looking back) I was deconstructing the situation some forty years on in a VERY “hypocritical/irrational/fantastical” manner. Now, hopefully, I (and the others on this thread) ARE attempting to understand this particular situation in a “REALPOLITIK” manner – with INTELLIGIENCE and with a cold, hard, sobering and self-preservationist look at how abusing, humiliating, defiling and depriving hope from helpless, vulnerable children not only ultimately threatens the security of Israel but of our own families, our children and our children’s children. We are talking about world security here, not just those who live in or have cultural or religious ties to Israel.
And on another level, one based on COMPASSION, I think we can all agree that it is just not OK for ANY government to treat ANY body of people like animals. It never has been and it never will be. No matter what the “complexities of the situation from a historical, economic, political” perspective are.
as far as my bringing up the holocaust and anti-semitism, it seems to me they are such easy and obvious corollaries to almost any discussion about israelis, palestinians, jews.
but i choose to have a “realpolitik” view of the situation.
my adding “el jew” was another foolish attempt at humor, but also identifying my leanings at the outset.
i don’t know mac, never heard of him before this.
he struck me as a liberal-radical punk
boy Didj- you pompous little dweeb. “blusterous and prejudiced”?
and i thought you were my friend…
it’s about “human” solutions- with INTELLIGENCE and COMPASSION –El Anonimo
Well, my anonymous and inflamatory x-friend, first, I’d like to thank you for calling me a “pompous little dweeb”. This is a compliment – coming from you within the complex context of this hot thread. As you sling your biased and meritless opinions around the room of this discussion , I cannot help but see the contrast between you and Mac. No wonder his experience has triggered you into externalizing your own internal conflict. You must feel pretty ineffectual in comparison to him. Mac has just left a refugee camp in Palestine while you shake invisible trees of words from your hidden and safe perch. You do not even have the courage to reveal your identity and this is just the internet. This audacious irony instantly refutes your superficial and slippery carriage and leaves Mac’s star shining that much brighter next to the compliment of your darkness.
spk,
I hope you can see now what was a little bit out of kilter about your post. You say somewhat archly that you were “not unaware” that it was a controversial topic, but then you seem to be surprised that it generated controversy! You can’t have it both ways, my friend. The reality is that Mac’s dispatches — however moving and well-intentioned, however brave his actions — had a certain partisan flavor, albeit well-disguised by his dedication to theatre with adolescents. And therefore your post partook of that partisan flavor. I didn’t say propaganda, or anti-American — don’t go there. But definitely partisan, in a setting notorious for its volatility. So for you to protest that all you’re doing is sharing the exploits of a local boy rings a little hollow.
Now this is not a sin — no need to take it personally or get bent out of shape about it.
As for El Anonimo, well, he keeps swinging a bit wildly, but that just reinforces my previous point.
On the other hand, you both get lots of credit for hanging in there and trying to express yourselves honestly and without too much animosity.
Also noteworthy is the jury of your peers — no question where the predominant weight of feeling is there…. perhaps somewhat revealing about the readership of the Ojai Post.
Special thanks to sld@tip for her heartfelt contribution.
Sld@tip, Thank you. Your post was very important to me. The compassion you have written about should be guiding our thoughts on this issue. The fact of the matter is that I cannot imagine a circumstance where what is happening to the children in the occupied territories is in any way justifiable. I’m a fairly new parent as well, he’s two, and as Mac’s dispatches were coming in I was often moved to tears. What can I say, I guess I’m just a bleeding heart liberal.
I’ve read other people’s comments trying to explain the obvious injustice away by using another unimaginable atrocity as some sort of excuse or jumping off point. It’s too flip to simply say that two wrongs don’t make a right, but that element is there. I have a tendency to to come off as angry or even “off kilter”. An urge to fight tends to be my immediate reaction to injustice, whether that injustice be merely perceived or as real as those children in Mac’s dispatches. This time I’m trying to see if the dispatches above elicit the same compassion in others that they have in me. I very glad to see that, in most cases, they have. If we can all feel that same compassion, perhaps, through that shared feeling, we can begin to find a way out of this “big mess.”
i think i’ll sign off on this thread, unless anyone has a specific point to discuss.
i think i’ve prettymuch said all i have to say about the matter
free the children!!
save the children!!
free the children!!
SHALOM
SALAAM
SHABBAT SHALOM
i think i’ll sign off on this thread, unless anyone has a specific point to discuss.
i think i’ve prettymuch said all i have to say about the matter
free the children!!
save the children!!
free the children!!
SHALOM
SALAAM
SHABBAT SHALOM
From anonymous 12:59: “… every offering of the past four decades has been in the context of, first the Israelis take every single thing away, take more land, add more settlements, bomb the shit out of these people, and then offer to stop the bombs and killings for now and give a little itty-bitty back if the Palestinians give up everything. The Palestinians are vilified if they balk.”
From El Anonimo: “I conclude that Israel acted in good faith during the (male) Clinton administration and Arafat and his gang were the obstacles to peace.”
Is there an informed person out there who could give a quick, short synopsis of what was on offer during the Clinton peace talks, and why it didn’t fly?
Recollection says that the Israelis did put up a pretty serious comprehensive offer, and that the Palestinians didn’t agree for reasons I can’t recall.
But that recollection is from U.S. media, so who knows.
Two thumbs up to sld@tlp’s post. Way to go girl! And four thumbs up to Mac for his heroics! Maybe I’ll submit that to the Ojai Valley News. People need to know about this, as sld pointed out, “these children’s lives and struggles would be invisible to me if not for his sharing.”
She touched on another crucial point to this discussion and so many others like it. “It is time to focus our attention on how to end violence in its many forms.” Even in the anonymous realm of the blog I witness violence. It seems so easy to hurl insults back and forth from the trebuchets of our outrage, that often the potential of this technology is mired in the bogs of our own self-righteousness. How can we ever solve the larger issues facing our existence if the best we have to offer is pompous little dweeb. Anon, this is not a direct attack on you, simply the first example that came to mind. I know I’ve delivered my share of insults.
I need to state however that anger is good, it is one of the best motivators for change. And if you’re not angry at what’s going on, on what Mac shared, or at yourself for shameless disregard, then excuse yourself from any decision making process. It is time for you to vacate the building.
But to address a question you posed Mr(s). Anon, “does anyone actually have any ideas and/or solutions for this conflict that have not been tried dozens of times by people much more committed and powerful than us,” the answer is simple. Stop fighting!!! Stop fighting!!! Stop fighting!!! The only way to peace is through peace, you cannot bomb, shoot, burn, corral, insult, embarrass, or embargo anyone to peace. Push and they push back. This is a natural law. It will not change unless the very threads binding this universe together unravel and form something new.
This reminds me of the U.S. discourse after 9/11. Our anger, which was normal and healthy, was misdirected by evil forces. Had we taken the attention of that anger and directed it at the cause of this disaster, we would have found out much about ourselves. We would have been a step closer to peace. A step closer to the end of war. To quote Dennis Kucinich, “War is not inevitable, it is learned. And peace is something that can be learned as well.” -*side note, vote DK in the primaries*-
Back to topic, cease fires have happened many times in the past, and then someone ceases the cease fire. I have heard accounts for contemporaries, working in the middle east, that is almost always the IDF that shoots first. If it is the Palestinians, it usually happens after an IDF raid. Either way, the point is that the fighting hasn’t stopped. It is born out of a mindset unwilling to drop the past and move forward. What we need is an old-fashioned paradigm shift. A good old mental revolution. We need the thinkers and the healers and the ‘rebels’ (Mac & company) and the free spirits and the nuns and the doctors and the teachers and the children and Mister Freakin Rogers to come together and demand, through voice and action a better tomorrow and a better today!
Peace, and thank you again sld@tlp. It’s time for a Love Project!
Well, to be fair, El Anonimo was reacting to pretty juvenile comment – “El Emema” (!?!?!?). Which really wasn’t called for (El Anonimo is opininated, but I don’t think he’s ever been rude or insulting). Shouldn’t Ojai Post authors be held to a higher standard?
Hey El Anon: don’t drop out. We all have pertinent points of view that continue and forward this much needed dialogue. And remember – we ALL get beat up here sooner or later….
thanks, everyone, for being open to hearing my thoughts/feelings. if i can share one more thing as the thread fades, perhaps…
a number of years ago, i had a long-time acquaintance who i sometimes called friend and other times called terrible names. we were members of a shared spiritual community and both tried very hard to get along. but we were locked in a subtle battle of wills, each caught up in the need to have the deepest pain and most profound insights about life. every time we entered one another’s company, we drew our respective mental and emotional ‘swords’, guarding ourselves agianst the inevitable conflict. despite our efforts, we seemed destined to clash. it hurt my heart and threatened my pride to have both an ally and adversary in this person. i wanted the perceived safety and comfort of either loving or hating him, instead i felt both.
one night as we sat talking, i addressed this underlying theme openly and said that i had come to a place where i didn’t want to draw my sword at all… with anyone… i was tired of fighting myself through other people and desperately wanted to find another way to deal with my fear, insecurity and pain than to need to be right and in control. he felt the same way.
we agreed to give our relationship one year to shift in ways that supported us laying our weapons down… and if, after the year had come and gone, we still felt that dueling was a requirement for our interactions, we would let the relationship go completely.
as the year passed, we saw each other less and less, each time holding our tongues and opening our hearts a little more. it felt like small progress and, in the end, our friendship faded. but, even when we saw each other in passing as the years went along, we were kind. kinder than before.
i can’t speak for him, but in that year (and certainly in the decade that has followed) i saw clearly the healing and damaging power of my words and actions on others. i began to understand that fear of being outshined or outsmarted comes at a tremendous cost to relationships and my own humanity. i started to see how i undo my efforts to heal and grow by trying to take the short road to enlightenment, by needing to have fast answers to long questions… and so on.
today, i feel i’ve pulled back too far from the difficult discussions from a fear of conflict and what it seems to bring out in most of us. now, with the state of the world and the beautiful child in my arms, i am coming forward again, looking for ways to participate in the struggle without engaging in the battle.
when i see others face difficult problems openly and honestly with a measure of vulnerability and restraint, i am encouraged and inspired. this blog has given me that. thank you.
LTOR-
I’ve pulled back because I’ve pretty much said my piece, not because I feel I’ve been abused, spindled or mutilated.
I’m pretty much waiting for someone to answer Anon Dec 1 01:57PM question:
“Is there an informed person out there who could give a quick, short synopsis of what was on offer during the Clinton peace talks, and why it didn’t fly?”
I certainly have my opinion on that which I believe to be informed by “facts” and I’ve already stated it.
I’m glad at least someone noticed my “dweebie” comment was just a slight rejoinder to a previous verbal attack on me.
So much easier to dis the messenger than to continue to examine the very complex issue.
Don’t worry- I’m still lurking very actively and will scat when I am moved to.
Thanks for the invitation.
Just a reminder- there are benefits for two of our own today who are dealing with serious health issues:
1. Patricia Cardinale, 2-6 Ojai Valley Community Church 907 El Centro
2. Lauren Severino 1 or 2-4 at Ojai House 304 N. Montgomery
Hope to see you at one or both.
I’ll be wearing a nice smile…
Well this has been fun. I was half expecting Mac to jump on here if he felt like finding an internet connection on the beach in Thailand. He still might, so I’d better correct an error before he comes on here screaming at me. The proper spelling of Mac’s last name is Lojowsky, not ski. It a long running joke between us that I continually misspell his last name.
As to the question posed by Anon in comment #42:
What people are referring to as the Clinton Peace Talks are actually an extension of the Oslo Accords first initiated at the Madrid Conference of 1991 during the presidency of George H.W. Bush and finalized in Oslo, Norway on Aug. 20, 1993. There was the famous signing ceremony at the White House where Clinton stood posing while Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin shook hands, as if Clinton had anything to do with it.
Negotiations were ongoing at the Madrid Conference in 1991 and were being hamstrung by the usual problems. Namely, the Palestinian “right of return”, and increasing Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. The Israelis would not give and the Palestinians were unwilling to give up the “right of return’ and their lands.
It was at that point that the U.S. State Department along with the Israelis back channeled Yasser Arafat, former “terrorist” demon. They promised that he could return to the west bank from his exile and that he could be the “leader” of the new Palestinian State. Of course, he really had no authority over anything but the PLO which was known as a “terrorist” organization who’s primary authority was derived from the support of the Egyptian government, not the Palestinian people. Yasser Arafat went from “terrorist” demon to “statesman” in a very short period of time. Like about 2 years.
The assertion that “Arafat and his gang” were obstacles to peace couldn’t be further from the truth. Arafat was a creature of the Oslo Accords and by extension the U.S. State Department and the Israeli government. The idea that the Palestinians gave nothing during the “peace process” brought on by Oslo is patently ridiculous. Consider, under UN Resolution #242 all lands occupied by Israel during the Yom Kippur War of 1967 were to be vacated. By signing the Oslo documents Arafat effectively “relinquished 78% of what was Palestine under the British mandate. This left only the west bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza for the supposed Palestinian State. By any measure that is a huge concession. The only real problem was that he had no real legitimacy to make such concessions in the name of the Palestinian people. Subsequently years dragged on and the “peace process” was grinding on with more and more concessions expected from the Palestinians. The withdrawal of the IDF was postponed indefinitely and more and more Israeli settlements were placed throughout the west bank and gaza. One set of stats has it that in 1990, before Oslo, there were 76,000 Israeli colonists in the occupied territories. By 2000 there were 383,000 colonists on the land that Oslo gave as the new Palestinian State.
Meanwhile, the Palestinians became disenchanted with Arafat and the PLO as they watched more and more of their lands settled by Israelis while the received only excuses. This enabled the rise of Hamas which was voted into power in 2006. This enabled Israel and the U.S to throw away the “roadmap to peace” formerly the “peace process”. This turn of events was obvious to anyone with eyes and the sense to follow history. Of course the Palestinian people would become radicalized and embrace Hamas when all they had been fed for years was what is fed to mushrooms. The only real question is, was this by design. Did Israel know that by effectively neutralizing the PLO by getting Arafat to accept the Oslo Accords, that the Palestinian people would continue the intifada and embrace a group like Hamas thus obviating any responsibility for Israel to uphold their end of those same accords? In this light, it is obvious that Israel never had any intentions of giving up the occupied territories.
Not exactly concise and not short, but it is a fairly involved history. Once again I must recommend Bill Fisk’s “The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East” to those that wish to educate themselves on the modern history of the Middle East. The issue is really no more complicated than most other areas of Human history where people are trying to take advantage of other people AND claim that they are morally right to do so.
I’ll leave you with this bit of wisdom from George Carlin:
“Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity. “
spk-
please explain the internal struggles and skirmishes of the “Palestinian people”
please elaborate on your statement: “claim that they are morally right to do so”
please explain how “Arafat and his gang” were NOT obstacles to peace.
please explain how much you think Arafat has/had in bank accounts and his display of Rolexes and fine cars (and apartments in Paris, I think)
while you have a nice tidey explanation, i think you may have a lot more splainin’ to do.
just a thought…
El Anonimo – your tactic doesn’t fly. You have put up 0 facts throughout your posts. You asked someone to answer the previous “anonymous” question. Where is your answer?
If you disagree with spk, what you need to do is lay out whatever supplemental facts you think contradict what he has said. Potshots at his statements just make your position look weak.
In other words, don’t ask spk to “please explain”: YOU explain, if you have something to offer here.
Please.
dedji,you ARE the dennis leary of your generation.. Be proud!! v/r ojai 4th july parade committee
Anon 04:19 PM
I don’t have the “facts” you may be looking for at my fingertips.
I may not even have them anywhere in my brain.
However if you review my voluminous posts you may find some “facts” that MAY be indisputable, even though you may not like them or agree with them or think they are relevant.
To wit:
1. “60-70% of European Jewry were killed during 1939-1945, and that in many, many places 90-100% of Jews were killed”
2. “Tum-Nuk-Thai, which can serve 2000 patrons while watching dance performances on 3 stages with waitpersons moving around on rollerskates walkie-talkieing orders to the kitchen.”
3. “I am surprised no one has mentioned the recent negotiations last week (I was on retreat so I could not follow them), or the increasing violence WITHIN the palestinian territories.”
So as far as I am concerned I have presented some “facts”.
As far as the “factual report” spk presented, it “sounded” pretty good and apparently was informed by the author he mentions. I do not know enough to question his facts. I simply want to “test” him a little further to see how deeply he has really looked at the situation.
It really is the student (me) testing the supposedly knowledgeable professor (spk).
Anon- your post was almost an unbearable bear trap for me.
Your concluding it with “Please” made ALL the difference.
What surprises me the most about the ongoing destruction of Palestine is that the tactics being used on the Palestinians precisely mimic the tactics that were used on the Jewish people living in Nazi Germany. It reminds me of an abused child who grows up only to repeat the same abuse – only now the abusee is the abuser.
DiDj-
“precisely mimic the tactics that were used on the Jewish people living in Nazi Germany.”?
1. i don’t believe any gas/death chambers have been found in Palestine.
2. the Israeli government often releases hundreds of Palestinian prisoners for 1 Israeli prisoner that has been captured by Palestinians.
3. Israelis and Palestinians occasionally try to reach peace. There are groups that work hard to bridge the gap.
Didj- Please find precise parallels between jews and nazis.
El, This (Please find precise parallels between jews and nazis.) is your own assignment. Turn it in when ever you like.
The actual comparison I had in mind is between: Israel’s current treatment of Palestinians in the “ghettos”, “refugee camps”, “settlements” etc and the Nazi treatment of Jewish people in the ghettos of Nazi Germany. What you will learn, if you decide to take this assignment, will perhaps help broaden your perspective.
I reccomend that you begin with the conditions of the Jewish ghettos in Germany from
El Anon:
If you were to disentangle the Holocaust with policies of Israel (or if the Holocaust never happened, for example) would you hold Israel to a higher standard? Would the way they are handling the Palestinian population be acceptable if, say, Russia or France were doing the same thing to Georgians or Algerians?
And it’s not just the way they are currently treating the Palestinians – remember Sabra and Shatila? If memory serves, Sharon should have been indicted for war crimes. Instead he went on to become PM. I had a hard time swallowing that one.
Didj, your comparison makes me wince. The Nazi’s were rounding up and confining all the “undesirables” at the very same time they were building the camps, as in – there intent while doing so was ultimately extermination. Plus, making such a comparison inevitably is going to be extremely painful to a great deal of people….To me, it wouldn’t be worth it – there are plenty of other valid arguments to make. (Just my two cents.)
Didj-
of course i easily got your point.
of course i was commenting on your choice of words to attempt to indicate parallels (mimicry) where i don’t think parallels exist.
and of course, thank goddess, LTOR sees right to the heart of the effect of your words.
LTOR-
I’m sorry, I just don’t have the mental-emotional ability to answer your “If” question.
If you are asking me whether I give the Israelis a free pass to act like Nazis because of the Holocaust, the answer is NO.
The Dr.thinks el anonimo and didj should re-enact the middle east conflict out.By their tone I would suggest the venue of a nice soft and silky queen bed without the use of lubrication,so as to know the real pain of getting screwed.LONG LIVE PALESTINE ,DEATH TO THE ZIONIST OCCUPATION IN THEIR COUNTRY AND IN OURS!!!
Kind of a lame comment, don’t you think. There’s plenty of other places to go be a dumbass isn’t there Dr. Susio? Run along and play now.
PHBBBBTTTT!!!!
Dr Susio, I suggest you live out your fantasy all by yourself.
Meanwhile, lets see what some other less demented folks are saying:
The following essay was pulled from a Reality Sandwich comment thread and can be attributed to ecolocal.
The Torah and The Bible were written by fanatical genocidal maniacs (apparently exclusively male) with the sole purpose of justifying genocide and turning human populations into easily controlled herds – and you’d better believe it.
There was nothing “open source” about these books , and openness was most certainly not in the agenda. The constant modification was done by people in charge , with the aim of justifying their crimes (actual and proposed) against humanity. These were political propaganda documents reinforced by metaphysical rewards and punishments.
Zionist jews believe they have the “right” to violently invade and take over Palestine not only because the Torah is historically valid as a proof for claiming “back their land” , but because they believe the metaphysical messages of the Torah are also valid, and these messages make them the Chosen People (all the way back to Abraham, God’s best mate) with Divine Rights above all others.
(Funnily, many muslims also think about themselves along similar lines)
The so-called “scholars” are mostly fakes with careers to protect, who could never admit that these so-called sacred books are not only historically but also metaphysically FALSE.
The claim that they are the product of some sort of collective archetypal/mythological knowledge is as equally false as the claim that they are historical documents. What they really represent is a very cunning and devious hi-jacking of actual myths and folklore, twisted and distorted to serve purposes that were not exactly “altruistic”- much more like “enslaving”.
The Dr. is not taking suggestions, he’s givin em baby!You and el anonimo love each other and you know it…and me thinks Freud might draw some exciting conclusions from your “el enema”comment you twisted perv!
Sometimes an emema is just an emema…
so sorry about that hasty mis-spelling… sometimes an enema is just an enema…
Yes but when coupled with vitriolic rhetoric and the source…well ,hmmm, i think we all know the Freudian take on the matter is a reasonable conclusion.
We are ever so lucky to have Dr Susio channeling Dr Freud. I think we all know that Dr Susio’s the one drinking too much vitroleum these days.
whatever dude your a dirty enema lover ha ha! DR.SUSIO IS OUTTA HERE! Pleasant poopy dreams mr didj-er-ee-don’t!
thread closed. this is ridiculous, children.
From a friend:
“Happy Hanukkah & winter holidays to all. It’s a good time for advancing human rights and justice. I’ve been concerned for a long time about AIPAC — that it’s been the strongest “Jewish voice” influencing our elected officials to align with the most right-wing forces in Israel and give the Israeli gov’t carte blanche to pursue a maniacal and destructive policy. While I don’t feel comfortable forwarding the announcement below to lists that are not political in nature, I have decided to send it to a group of folks. I intend to be at this protest against AIPAC on Dec. 17. More commentary from me follows the announcement.
=============================================================
Protest AIPAC at their Membership Dinner
Monday, December 17th 6pm
Oakland, CA · 11th and Broadway (Map) — Outside Marriot Hotel
We Say NO to a Lobby for War!
We say no to a lobby for war. As the AIPAC lobby celebrates its continued success in pressuring politicians to maintain a militaristic policy in the Middle East, its support of US aid to Israel even as it continues and expands its occupation of Palestinian land, its call for ever more sanctions against Iran that can lead to catastrophic war, we will be outside with a very different agenda. We call for peace in the Middle East based on international law, global nuclear disarmament, and an end to US aid for occupation — in Palestine and Iraq.
Endorsed by: Stop AIPAC! • Middle East Children’s Alliance • Global Exchange • Jewish Voice for Peace • Alameda Party Green Party • Bay Area Women in Black • International Solidarity Movement – Northern California • Berkeley Women in Black• East Bay Coalition for Self-rule for Iraqis (EB-COSSI).• Middle East Policy Advisory Committee (MEPAC).
More info: people@stopaipac. org
http://www.stopaipa c.org/oaklandpro test.htm
***** ***** **** ****** ****** ******* ******* ****** *******
Shana’s further commentary (to my Jewish friends and colleagues):
Ever since uber-capitalist Likud and their ‘religious’ partners became the strongest forces in the Israeli political game, the country has rapidly and drastically deteriorated. My most recent experience of Israel (10 months in 2000-01), was not only intense, but quite heartbreaking. Jewish Israel has become a Hebrew-speaking middle-American colony. It’s an endless series of slick shopping malls; markets full of ‘food’ from factory farms (worked by foreign workers/slave laborers); suburbs where nobody knows their neighbors; nightclubs where disillusioned young people numb themselves with illegal drugs; and, of course, growing ranks of ‘ultra-Orthodox’ who practice a form of Judaism reminiscent of the Catholicism of the medieval Crusades. I am so angry that some very rich Israeli schmucks are laughing all the way to the bank as most of the population gets poorer and poorer. And it’s all much, much worse for Palestinians!
By our inaction, we are allowing “Jewish” fascists to destroy anything good that enlightened, progressive Jews have accomplished in Eretz Yisrael. Already those accomplishments have been all but forgotten by most Israelis, and we in the diaspora seem to forget that we have any responsibility for people –Jews, Palestinians, fellow humans– outside of our own neo-shtetls (e.g., Berkeley). If you believe that we Jews should share the land with our Palestinians sisters & brothers, and that we should share the vision of the late Ahad Ha-am, Martin Buber, and all the lights that have shined through the darkest times, please do something about it!
Inshallah, I will see some of you outside the Marriot on Dec. 17th. I expect to be coming from teaching my class at Congregation Beth El. I hope it’s not my last class (maybe they’ll fire me), but I won’t let that little personal fear stop me. The love in our hearts is the flame of the greatest courage.”
Interesting post. What are your feelings about what your friend has written? Parts of it appear to closely mirror the facts on the ground that Mac was writing about.
my feelings are that it makes me further question my “support” for “Israel”.
Bottom line for me is that I feel Israel has a “right” and a “need” to “defend” itself.
If ever I were to come to the conclusion that Israel is “more” interested in “subjugating” the Palestinians than it is in “self-preservation” and “self-defense”, then I would seriously rethink my feelings/position.
I use quotations liberally around many words and phrases because I feel each one of them is “loaded” with emotional charge and varied interpretations.
thanks for asking
Further to this thread, take a look at the latest issue of National Geographic:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2007-12/bethlehem/finkel-text.html
Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus, has been walled in. Its residents can’t get out. The wall has been built inside occupied land, and in violation of the Geneva Conventions and U.N. resolution, Israel has sponsored mass settlements in furtherance of a theory of “feet on the ground” aimed at eventually annexing the occupied Palestinian land in any settlement.
The pictures are indeed worth a thousand words. Humanity cannot justify this.
Check It Out, that article makes me sad.
I suppose someone now will tell us how National Geographic is a notorious anti-Semitic, pro-Palestinian propaganda vehicle.
If so, its pretty effective. What kind of due process did the citizens of Bethlehem receive before being sentenced to life imprisonment?
Meanwhile, Israel is building KB-Home-style settlements in the occupied lands from which the Palestinians have had to flee.
Further up on this thread, two alternative views were posed:
From anonymous 12:59: “… every offering of the past four decades has been in the context of, first the Israelis take every single thing away, take more land, add more settlements, bomb the shit out of these people, and then offer to stop the bombs and killings for now and give a little itty-bitty back if the Palestinians give up everything. The Palestinians are vilified if they balk.”
From El Anonimo: “I conclude that Israel acted in good faith during the (male) Clinton administration and Arafat and his gang were the obstacles to peace.”
Look at today’s news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071211/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians
El Anonimo: Is this an example of what you call “good faith” on the Israeli side?
Anonymous 12:31PM:
I saw the same account and read it carefully.
And I suggest you read it carefully again, putting aside any preconceptions, leanings, ideas you have.
Also I request that you investigate:
“The Palestinians consider any Israeli building in the West Bank and east Jerusalem to be settlement activity and a violation of the U.S.-backed “road map” peace plan’s ban on all settlement construction.
Israel says the settlement freeze does not apply to Jerusalem. Israel annexed east Jerusalem after the 1967 war and considers the entire city to be its capital.”
I am too lazy to do so, but I would be interested in your conclusion as to who has the “right” to Jerusalem.
Also I am not sure where you come up with the notion of “What kind of due process did the citizens of Bethlehem receive before being sentenced to life imprisonment”.
I did not notice that in the photo gallery.
You might research the prisoner swaps Israel has made with the Palestinians over the years where often they release 400 Palestinians “criminals” for 1 Israeli captive.
Only when you get the facts straight in their proper historical/legal/religious/political context is there a basis for a “proper” discussion.
I certainly don’t have all that together.
But I pretty much refuse to discuss this with anyone who is reacting primarily emotionally because it is too easy to portray the Israelis as aggressors and the Palestinians as poor innocent victims, unless you have an understanding of the “big picture”.
Please notice I have not said a word about anti-Semitism, the Holocaust, etc.
As I have stated previously I take the position that Israel has a right and a need to defend and protect itself. Yes I agree that the settlements are a calculated policy that I don’t quite get.
I very briefly glanced at the Nat Geo article which tries to get at the history and it might actually be accurate. I would need to read it more carefully to see if it has any obvious biases. But even then I will remind you that I realize I don’t know the whole picture. And no one who has posted on this thread, either pro or anti either way has demonstrated to me that they have a comprehensive grasp of the complexities there.
SHALOM
SALAAM
SHALOM
Here’s a sobering statistic. Since the end of the Summit at Annapolis, sponsored by the US and Condoleeazza Rice, Israel has killed at least 40 Palestinians in Gaza. That’s more than two a day.
By imprisonment I think Anon comment #73 was referring to the illegal Apartheid wall.
I’m still waiting for a rational explanation for this behavior on the part of Israel. Or for that matter, the US.
spk- let’s be precise.
The US and Condie did not “sponsor” the Summit, they “hosted” it:
http://annapolisconference.state.gov/
Also I’m not sure it is proper to say Condie “hosted” the Summit, but she did host a dinner:
http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rt/c2829.htm
While Israel “MAY” have “killed at least 40 Palestinians in Gaza”, I am not aware of any Israelis being killed in terrorist attacks in Israel or anywhere else in the world during this time. So Israel is doing a GREAT job of protecting itself from terrorist forces that MAY be breeding or existing in Gaza.
Therein may be your rational explanation for this behavior.
Thank you for your thoughts on “imprisonment”. Your interpretation did not occur to me. I wonder if that is in fact what Anon #73 meant. If so it is a liberal use of the term.
Here is what is next:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071212/wl_nm/israel_palestinians_dc_1;_ylt=AsxeRqlHEnXtzdkH8Ljz1vIUewgF
Let’s all try to keep an open mind and open hearts and hope for the best.
After all, we have banned smoking in many parts of California and we did break up Ma Bell in 1984 even though she has pretty much put herself back together again.
of further interest (perhaps only to me):
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/12/5792/
When your children are being murdered in their sleep – do not react “emotionally,” that is childish and unproductive. Gain a comprehensive understanding of what is happening. Understand the reasons why they had to be killed. Only then, when you are rational and fully informed, will we listen to your what you have to say. Perhaps then, so long as you agree what was done could not be avoided, we might even acknowledge all in due time that we should try to have less children die.
When you are the third generation of your family living locked behind walls in a prison camp, watching across the wall as the occupiers who have murdered and imprisoned your family members build themselves happy homes on your land… don’t react emotionally. That is childish and unproductive. Set aside your emotions. Gain a comprehensive understanding. You know, the one that says that what is happening is just as it should be. Then we will be happy to listen to whatever you have to say.
Etc. and on.
El Anonimo, I admire your persistence. But your search for “rationality” in what the Israelis are doing, and a “full understanding of the complexities” I fear may be doomed.
uh, which children are “being murdered in their sleep”?
When and where, please?
FACTS, not bullshit!
And when Israeli children are being murdered in buses, cafes, restaurants, hotels, aquariums, what is the proper response?
That is right my friend. When you are fully informed please come back and post some more.
by the way, I have eaten in those cafes, ridden those buses, visited those tourist areas that have been sites of terrorist attacks. And there but for the grace of the goddess do I still breathe.
I have not spent any real time in the Palestinian territories so I cannot speak directly to that.
Focusing on “children…being murdered in their sleep” is, in my mind, simply fanning the flames of an extremely gnarly and complex conflict.
Truly sane minds, clear hearts and love of peace are required for reconciliation.
Wow, I thought this thread was shut down a long time ago…
El Anon: Mac presented several compelling examples and “facts” drawn from his personal experiences while staying there. And the Reuters article above presents a few more: “Over the years, Machsomwatch has recorded a long list of checkpoint incidents: babies stillborn to mothers held up in queues, sick patients denied passage to hospitals, arguments that ended in Palestinians shot, food rotting on the way to market, students missing their final exams and bridegrooms their weddings.” I’m sure the National Geographic article has many more (unfortunately, I haven’t had the time to read it, nor the sites you’ve referenced – I look forward to coming back and doing so as soon as is possible). The “facts” about innocent people being caught in this situation (on both sides) are clearly out there.
No one is denying the frightening and tenuous position most Israeli’s are in on a daily basis. No one is debating whether or not Israel (like any nation) has a right to defend itself. The point that most of us are trying to make is that the tactics employed and, often, the level of sheer viciousness and inhumanity directed at people who have NOTHING to do with terroism is something that needs to be addressed. The world has been uninformed about THESE “facts” for far too long.
Also, I firmly believe in the point Mac makes above:
“You want to make freedom fighters/martyrs/terrorists? Here’s how- you put a group of young boys, ages 10-15, on a bus and tell them they are going to see a play in Ramallah. Let the boys get overjoyed at the chance to leave the refugee camp for the first or second time in their lives. The boys get haircuts, dress up, their mothers pack them little lunches. Then you do what the IDF did last night.”
Just as the Bush/Cheney idiots have made the world more dangerous for all of us, so too (I believe) does Israel.
Sorry, I meant to say “so too does the RIGHT WING FACTION in Israel”.
(How the heck do you italicize on the web?)
LTOR-
please report on “children are being murdered in their sleep”.
That’s what I’M talking about.
Not everything else you report which has been gone over before.
“The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.”
- Catherine Cook
El Anon, if you can, pay particular attention to “simply being in their homes.” Often at night and while they would be asleep if the incessant bombing and gunfire of the IDF didn’t awaken them. Please, stop denying reality. Here’s another number for you. 971 Palestinian CHILDREN have been killed by Israel since September 29th, 2000. Here’s a complete list of every Palestinian child killed this year:
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2007.html
Now stop be so deliberately obtuse. It doesn’t suit you.
I’ve been away from this thread for a while, so I apologize if my prior posts were rehashing old news, El Anon, but I am struck by your dogged and persistent stance. You seem to come across as envisioning yourself as the one taking the intellectual / rational high ground while the rest of us lack a “proper historical/legal/religious/political context” in which to base our objections to humanitarian crimes. How much perspective do we really need to feel (without a shadow of a doubt) that murder, manslaughter, false imprisonment and mental and/or physical torture is unacceptable – anywhere, anytime? How much of a “comprehensive grasp of the complexities” of the region do any of us really need to know right from wrong, that two wrongs don’t make a right and so forth?
Here are a few excerpts from “Israelis Torturing Palestinian Children”
by Nora Barrows-Friedman:
“What is being witnessed and documented within the detention centres and prison camps is widespread, systematic violation of international laws experienced by Palestinian children under 18 years old, including torture, interrogation, physical beatings, deplorable living conditions and no access to fair trial, according to reports by human rights groups and legal observers.”
“Arne Malmgren, a Swedish lawyer, has worked as a legal observer inside Israeli military courts during trials of Palestinian children. “The Israeli court system does not look like any other court system in the world,” Malmgren told IPS. “Israeli military staff, the judge, the prosecutor, the interpreter — they are all in military uniform. There are plenty of soldiers with weapons inside the courtroom.
“The small children come into the courtroom in handcuffs and full chains; there can be up to seven children at the same time in the courtroom. One lawyer described it as a cattle market. The trial is more like a plea bargain — before the proceedings, the prosecutor and the lawyer have already agreed on the child’s sentence, and then they just ask the judge if he agrees, and he almost always does.
“There are no witnesses, nothing. And the worst thing is what happened before the child arrives at the courtroom — when they interrogate these young boys and girls to get them to sign confessions to things they may or may not have done.”
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/10/435/
I’m going to bow out again on this thread.
I came back because a few days ago someone posted something that I felt needed rebuttal and clarification.
My pro-Israeli stance seems quite unpopular here.
I have explained how I feel quite often and I no longer have the time/inclination to defend my position, especially when comments about “intellectual high ground” and “obtuseness” enter the fray.
“Remember the Children” seems to be “sponsored” by the “American Educational Trust”. I suggest someone do a thorough research on them and their members to see if they have an “agenda” or a bias.
I have no idea who Nora Barrows-Friedman is.
Everything posted here may be true.
I will support Israel until such time as I conclude they are the obvious persecuters and violators of basic human rights, and are not simply primarily acting out of a need for self-defense and self-preservation, in a situation and a conflict that is extraordinarily complex and historical.
I am not running from communication or debate.
It seems to me we have simply rehashed this thing endlessly and I don’t think anyone is “budging” at this point.
PEACE
SALAAM
SHALOM
Peace, El Anonimo.
It is good to see that spk has dropped his pretense that he was merely a neutral conveyor of his friend’s interesting dispatches, and shown himself to be a flat-out partisan in a notoriously conflicted issue. (Oh I know, spk, you think you are only on the side of justice… not a partisan at all. Doesn’t matter….. you still get points for showing your true colors.)
It is good to see El Anonimo phrasing his remarks a little more carefully…. but he has gotten high scores all along for nuance and self awareness.
It is a little bit sad to see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict itself reflected in this forum. Aren’t both sides in that ugly conflict guilty of masssive quantities of brutality? Aren’t both sides wedded to irrational ideologies? Don’t they both take their cues from ancient religious mythologies that make about as much sense in the modern world as Adam and Eve? When one lunatic asylum is battling another, what sane person can take sides?
And it is especially painful when you guys start hurling insulting remarks (“deliberately obtuse”) at one another.
Hello Debate Monitor:
A. El Anonimo has dished it out to others on other threads (sometimes obliquely and gently, other times rather harsh and bombastically); I’m sure he realizes that he should be able to “take it” as well.
B. I cannot speak for any of the other commenters here, but I will say (again) that what I have been referring to (and I would venture to guess reflects the others’ position as well) is the institutionalized tactics used by the State of Israel. I don’t really see anyone debating the conflict as a whole or are in any way acting as an apologist for the Palestinian leadership, or any of the horrible crimes committed by SOME of its citizens. Maybe that would be another interesting thread and those more knowledgeable of the “historical, economic, political” situation would be better suited to comment.
However, this thread was started by someone who wanted to point out personal observances of illegal and immoral treatment of a certain group of people at the hands of another group of people seemingly acting with impunity and/or direction from their government. Very simple. And we responded just as we would have if these incidents were happening in any other part of the world. (And quite frankly, had El Anonimo not cried foul at the very beginning, this thread would have been much, much shorter.)
My position will always be that, just as we here in the US must treat everyone – even our most vile citizens (mass murderers, perpetrators of hate crimes, pedophiles, etc.) with a certain level of humanity and decency when we imprison them, every civilized society inherently has to adhere to a certain pre-described minimum level of treatment towards those under their control. And when a government (through its policies and practices) crosses that threshold – it becomes illegal, inhumane and morally indefensible. My position is that Israel has crossed that line time and time again and will continue to do so until more people begin to object and demand that they stop.
Furthermore, when presented with specific cases of humanitarian crimes, I think not addressing those specifics but instead deflecting the argument at hand by labeling fellow debaters as emotionally charged or insensitive to the complexities of the situation is a somewhat disingenuous and not very compelling. But, hey, you’re the debate monitor – what do you think?
“Debate Monitor” – what a crock.
Your biases are clear. spk’s statement of his views of a situation do not in any way change the nature of what he posted. Mac’s “dispatches” speak for themselves.
And sorry, El Anonimo with his lengthy efforts has only served to illustrate that the Israeli side is indefensible. We have seen fact after fact, report after report, and apparently the only thing that can be mustered in defense of the Israelis is this, yes, obtuse “complexities” garbage.
Is this why all debate over the subject is silenced in the mainstream media? Because, if the facts are brought out, the people would march on Washington tomorrow to halt further support for Israel?
As i read the comments here, and the numerous links, it has certainly been enlightening. The National Geographic piece was especially moving, especially with its pictures of the razor-wire-topped wall surrounding the people of Bethlehem, and the walled-in line the people are herded into in order to attempt to get out. Permission (almost always) denied.
The conclusion is inescapeable: Israel is an outlaw regime, a human rights violator, an aggressor, and potentially genocidal in its treatment of a whole people. That is a simple fact which no amount of “complexities” can override.
I wish it were otherwise.
El Anonimo, you can continue to disagree, perhaps in service of some greater “faith” or Lord knows what that requires you to blind yourself. But wouldn’t Israel be better served if the world – and especially those of us of Jewish heritage – stopped abetting these horrors?
well once again I come out of “retirement”
Anon #91:
How exactly are you (or for that matter I) “abetting” these horrors?
The world at large shows very little support for Israel. Check out the UN the last 20 or so years and their overall attitude toward Israel.
Frankly, you know what?, it’s none of MY business.
And as far as “perhaps in service of some greater “faith” or Lord knows what”, I can only say that I am an atheist/agnostic who views the current as a “realistic” “ongoing situation” that hopefully evolves into a more “mutually satisfying” situation.
Perhaps one day the wall will come down as the Berlin Wall did.
Or perhaps the wall will continue to be built as (I think) the Great Mexican-American Wall is under construction.
The obvious irony of “our” wall is that it is probably being built largely by “illegals”.
And probably the only thing that could halt the wall in Israel-Palestine is the lack of Palestinian workers being allowed in to complete it.
Although I do hear that a very large contingent of Thai (I believe) “guest-workers” are now in Israel.
Confusing, complex world don’t you think?
Am I blind?
Perhaps, a bit.
Do I lack compassion?
Probabaly I could develop that quality more.
But geeze, isn’t there at least 1 other ojaiposter who “supports” Israel?
Good Shabbat, everyone.
SHALOM.
I’m heading for the Ojai Mikvah (warm ritual bath to purify)
LTOR — What do I think? You mean, what would I do if I were running the world?
I would gather together all the Israelis and Palestinians and offer them a choice between Plan A or Plan B…..
Plan A: They all realize that the only meaningful change begins within each individual. Then they each free themselves, totally, from all of their religious conditioning and all attachment to national, ethnic, or tribal identification, and become citizens of the world. Then (and only then) they will be able to solve their particular problems.
I would give them 30 days in which to achieve Plan A. If they fail, I would implement Plan B.
Plan B: The world would declare all the inhabitants of Israel and Palestine to have rendered themselves unworthy of occupying the (so-called) Holy Land. We would ship them all off to Antarctica where they can watch the polar ice cap melting first-hand. We would tell them they cannot come back until they:
a) learn to get along and resolve all their differences; and
b) come up with a comprehensive solution to global warming that the whole world will accept.
In the meantime (probably a long time) I would give all their land over to the Nature Conservancy to be used as a sanctuary for endangered species.
someone please interpret the following article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_us_iran
El Anonimo,
The American intelligence report said Iran is not quite the nuclear threat that some had feared. Israel (along with many neo-cons) doesn’t buy it. So the Defense Minister is afraid we will all “let our guard down” which will open Israel up to sudden attack by Iran. The premise of his statement is that the NIE report is mistaken in its optimistic view, and therefore leaves Israel vulnerable.
Anonymous # 91: Anyone as aggressively arrogant and self-righteous in their views as you would naturally regard a neutral observer as biased. Therefore your insults are good confirmation of the validity of my role.
DM:
Can the wall being built by Israel be realistically characterized as anything OTHER than an Apartheid wall? It is in direct violation of International law. It is being built beyond the boundaries of the 1967 war. It’s straight up annexation.
I posted these dispatches so people would know what was happening in the West Bank as reported by a person many here in Ojai know or remember. I never said I was a completely impartial observer or supporter of the methods of the State of Israel. What’s happening, with the tacit, implicit and direct support of the United States, is unjust in the extreme. El Anon claims it is in defense of the state of Israel. This seems seriously out of step with reality to me, but it appears to be his position. I worry about anyone who can suspend their basic humanity long enough to justify the type of oppression that is occurring in the West Bank and Gaza.
The same affliction that can allow people to ignore the injustice being visited upon the Palestinians and Iraq and many other places is causing people here in the US to somehow argue in favor of water boarding prisoners in Bush’s Global War on Terror(GWOT). Injustice is injustice and it breeds resistance in an ever increasing vicious cycle of death and destruction. All of this is related and of a piece. It was the injustice of King George and his Royally chartered Corporations that fomented the Revolutionary War in the colonies. Torture was used in the Revolutionary War by the British. General George Washington unilaterally forbade the use of torture against the British soldiers and the mercenary hussars. The Revolutionary forces treated the enemy with respect and integrity. Because of this policy the British forces, often conscripted into service through the use of press gangs back home in Britain, surrendered in droves knowing they would not be ill treated. It had a tremendous effect on the outcome of the War for Independence. Simply, we won.
Somehow we’ve lost all of the ideals of the enlightenment that were enshrined in our Constitution. Now we are failing on so many fronts that it’s hard to imagine. It is wrongheaded. We have lost reason, compassion and much of our humanity and gained instead global corporate oligarchs that seeks only profit to the exclusion of all else.
Mac’s dispatches aren’t up for debate. He was there and he lived what he wrote. What’s been gone on in the comments seems to me to be an ongoing denial or justification of the reality of the injustice made real by those dispatches. After all that’s been said, there is still no justification for this behavior, and there never will be. Just as there is no justification for the behavior of our own country in Iraq and Afghanistan and far too many other places to mention. It is all of a piece and we are on a precipice with one foot suspended over the abyss ready to step in. The only question that matters is; will we regain or senses before we step off?
spk- VERY well said.
no need to worry about me…
as far as me “suspend(ing) my basic humanity”, well I guess it’s me and a few billion people who need to do some serious looking.
spk, quit yakking & do something to change it..
“Debate Monitor” offers a solution: Heal thyself, or failing that, ship all Israelis and Palestinians to Antarctica until they “resolve their differences.”
Gosh that’s beautiful.
We should apply that solution to more problems. Today, our criminal justice system is full of people being shipped off to prison for all kinds of things we call crimes. How unfair and unproductive. Let’s use DM’s solution: If there is a robbery, or a murder, or a rape, let’s ship the perpetrator and the victim, and their entire families and neighbors on both sides, off to Antarctica until they “resolve their differences.”
Or, we could just gather together and say that robbery, murder and rape are wrongs we won’t tolerate, and put the perpetrators, once convicted after a fair trial, in prison where they cannot keep harming others.
What’s wrong with that solution?
Dear Anonymous #99,
I do believe Debate Monitor’s comments regarding shipping folks who can’t resolve their differences to Antarctica was tongue-in-cheek.
If you are serious about your proposed solution:
“we could just gather together and say that robbery, murder and rape are wrongs we won’t tolerate, and put the perpetrators, once convicted after a fair trial, in prison where they cannot keep harming others,”
and if you are serious about your question,”What’s wrong with that solution?”
I think that deserves a seperate thread as this question is at the root of the failure of our prison system today.
I wish I were free to answer this most important question today…will come back to this in 2008 (or sooner).
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