ojai news at The Ojai Post :: blog, newspaper, events in Ojai, California

Hi Evan,
I think the majority of our service men and women are very honorable. The reference you made to the incident with the "pyramid" was unfortunate, but that incident does not represent the majority of our military. And, those people where punished, as they should be. But to hold that up to show how evil our troops are, really is a very anti-American act. Whenever you have a large number of people in the military or any group which is pulled from the society at large you are going to have a percentage that are a criminal element. Just look at the statistics of the overall society. I don't think it is right to blame the military for those actions. And the scale of those actions was so far away from the atrocities that were occuring under Sadam that they are hardly comparable.
Have you been reading what is going on in Burma? Do you think any thing should be done about it? They are a sovern nation so I guess we should not intervene.
I just recently saw the two movies Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima. Very brutal. It really showed the hoplessness of the common soldier during WWII on that island. It's amazing that we are now such good allies with Japan. Many of the Japanese actors in the movie were not aware of what happened on that island.

Brian

Brian,

Though I rarely agree with your politics, I think your question about Burma is timely and legitimate. I’m curious to know what others think about this issue.

In the meantime, though I know MoveOn.org is probably anathema to you, would you please sign their electronic petition, voicing your concern to the absolute tragedy taking place right now? The BBC has just reported that thousands of monks are set to be taken out of Rangoon and shipped to prisons up North...

http://pol.moveon.org/burma/?r_by=11316-8493305-MzeDAn&rc=confemail

Obviously, the above plea is not just for Brian - would you all please take the time, sign the petitions out there, email everyone on your contact lists to do the same, and do anything within your power to get involved.

Sorry, evan, if this is an improper comment on your thread, but this is beyond heartbreaking to me...

http://www.uscampaignforburma.org/

Great article by Ray Parker on the importance of Duty, Honor, Country. I would like to add some further book reading on the subject of Pearl Harbor: 'Day of Deceit' by Robert Stinnett (he worked with Lt. George H.W. Bush in WW-II) and --- 'Infamy' by John Toland (a Pulitzer prize winning historian(check your local library). These two books, I feel, would prove in court that President Roosevelt deliberately planned, instigated, and facilitated the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor to stampede us into WW-II (a war we should never have been in) to redistribute the world in Roosevelts' image. Regarding Iwo Jima, mantioned by Brian, I read once that General Douglas MacArthur was absolutly opposed to the Iwo Jima invasion as it was unneccessary to obtain that island airfield since there were hundreds of other islands in that area with no enemy troops at all that we could have built airfields on while meanwhile blockading Iwo Jima by air with virtually no casualties and letting it die on the vine as was MacArthurs' most successful strategy in the Pacific War. Iwo Jima, if viewed on a map, shows a string of islands from Iwo almost clear to Tokyo Bay. The battle of Iwo Jima was totally unneccessary. I further think it's obvious that a modern day Pearl Harbor road show is being played out under the created big incident of 911 stampeding us into the Iraq war. We should wise up and quit being manipulated into foreign wars that sacrifice our children.-Ed Nemechek-760-246-8059.

To correct a modern day injustice involving a military hero I feel we should demand freedom for former Congressman Randy Cunningham! (now in prison convicted on corruption charges). He is a top fighter pilot war hero who shot down the top fighter pilot in North Vietnam who was knocking our planes out of the sky like tin ducks in a shooting gallery. He also shot down other enemy aircraft saving many lives and was shot down over the ocean himself and almost wound up in the brutal Hanoi Hilton Communist prison where he would have been treated to daily beatings and recordings of speeches by Jane Fonda and probably never released as has been the terrible fate of our POW and MIAs who were betrayed by our own government and left behind . We all make mistakes in life but he also risked everything including his life to defend our country as other veterans have done. His political mistakes were wrong but those actions with private contractors never compromised or harmed our country and he should be given a break and set free. See:www. JBS. org (search: randy cunningham) or google randy cunningham on internet for more info. and call our representatives to correct this injustice. Ed Nemechek - 760- 246- 8059

Brian, It is strange that you latched onto evan's one reference - just a couple of words in a longer review of a WWII movie - to one of the shameful acts that have come to light in Bush's war, and then proceed as if evan had impugned the honor of all soldiers. Methinks thou dost protesteth too much.

Nevertheless, it is a good point, because it raises the question: Can there be any honor for soldiers participating in a dishonorable occupation, based on lies, without a defensible purpose? Can there be any honor for soldiers occupying a country where more than 80% of the population does not want them? Where members of the occupation army, as part of policy, "bait" civilians by placing seemingly abandoned goods on the street, then having snipers assassinate those who try to take them away? Where it is nothing to call in bombers and bomb a village, or a wedding, or any significant gathering of civilians? Where our soldiers, with impunity, occupy civilian homes routinely as part of policy when "reclaiming neighborhoods"? Where our soldiers routinely fire on and kill civilians who are unfortunate enough to be driving a car on the public road when one of our convoys comes through, killed for the crime of being unable to get out of the way fast enough, because our honorable soldiers do not want to risk that the car may be a bomb?

Is a soldier who is part of that occupation honorable? Is it enough for honor to simply refrain from the abuses? To not be the soldier who committed the "abuse"? To not be the sniper who pulled the trigger on the civilian?

Is the soldier who placed the "bait" honorable? How about the one who flew it into the country? How about the one who requisitioned it?

I don't know the answers. But let me ask you: If what our soldiers are doing today in Iraq is "honorable," do you also bestow the same honor on the soldiers of Nazi Germany? Of Pinochet's Chile? Of Mao's army in Tibet? Or of the Junta in Burma?

If not, why not?

The Foco (what is that?),
You are full of crap.

Brian

Hmmm, did that last one meet the "Post a Comment" guidelines?

All wars are stupid and unnecessary and to debate whether this one or that one is justified is just as stupid.

I watched Letters from Iwo Jima too and walked away thinking how absolutely ridiculous men and their egos are. How they would choose to kill themselves and leave their children and families behind for "Honor". Now that's a bunch of crap, Brian.

And you, Ed, I can't believe you would support the release of Duke Cunningham. Who did he hurt? He hurt every citizen working 2 1/2 days of their work week just to pay taxes so politicians like him, and his friends, can live in mansions and travel all over the world on our money. This man has betrayed the trust of a nation and he deserves a lot more than he got.

We have poor people rotting in jail for life for stealing a piece of pizza and you want this rich, white, man who stole millions from the public trust to be set free? Is this really what the JBS stands for?

Coleen-

Thanks for calling out Ed Numchuk.
I am sickened by his posts and wish he would retreat to his bunker and never be heard from again.

“All wars are stupid and unnecessary and to debate whether this one or that one is justified is just as stupid.”

Colleen:

What are your thoughts on genocide and the horrific human rights abuses that have happened in the past and are happening now (right now, as I write this)? Burma, Darfur, Sierra Leone, East Timor, Apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany…

Do countries who have the means and the moral will to intervene (in varying capacity) stand down and do nothing when diplomatic means have been exhausted, when boycotts fail, when international public outcry falls on deaf ears?

I don’t claim to know the correct and rightful answer to this, but I would submit that a healthy debate is exactly what is needed and required. Just ask the monks, peaceful protesters and students who are at risk of being massacred in Burma as we sit safe and sound having this semantic and philosophical exchange miles (and realities) away…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war

LTOR, isn't there is a difference between what most people consider a war, and the kind of police action you are contemplating? A limited intervention to stop a genocide seems to me an honorable plying of the soldier's trade.

It is not, unfortunately, the essence of the profession for far too many soldiers.

How often do the countries with the means step up readily with their armies to perform those limited, truly humanitarian interventions?

Here's something interesting: Check out the countries that do not maintain any offensive military capabilities. Then check out which countries are well represented in the kinds of humanitarian interventions that have happened in the past.

There is a notable correlation between the two.

Are all wars stupid and unnecessary? In the final analysis, yes. That does not mean a people might not find themselves drawn into one nevertheless.

But there is a connection between this beating of the chest for the soldier's "honor," and stupid, unnecessary wars. The more bleating you hear about the honor of soldiers in a war, the more stupid and unnecessary that war is likely to be. When soldiers perform their duties from necessity, rather than honor, pride, duty and "patriotism" - that is when wars become defensible, necessary ... and, just as likely, rare.

Brian, thank you for your enlightened response to my earlier post. I am glad you gave it some good hard thought.

Thanks for your thoughtful question, LTOR. First let me say I agree with all that Foco said on the subject so I won't begin to repeat it.

What I will add is this. If America is to have any respect in the world, then we have to live up to our stated principles and constitution. We have to help those who cannot help themselves.

For years prior to 9/11 I begged our government to save the women of Afghanistan who were being brutalized by the Taliban. Mine and the pleas of thousands of other men and women fell on deaf ears while our country continued to pour millions of dollars of aid to the brutalizers.

I have begged my representatives to intervene in every genocide that has taken place since my twenties and I can't really remember a single time when they did. What we continue to do is prop up dictators who oppress their people, support and train death squads in other countries, and try to overthrow democratically elected governments.

What our country (and human kind) should always do and what they never seem to do is tackle each and every world crisis with diplomacy, coalition building, economic sanctions (and I mean real ones, not the phony ones we used in Iraq that only hurt innocent women, children and the elderly), and any peaceful means to end world crises.

That is the real and genuine way we can become the leaders of the world if that were really our intention. (We does not really mean "we", I mean it as the people who run our government.) What our leaders really want is to keep us, and the world, in a perpetual war that will continue to funnel all our money right into their pockets.

If we really cared about the Iraqi people, we would have built them electrical plants that worked, and provided them with clean water, employment, education and food. Our leader’s intentions are to keep Iraq as chaotic as possible to keep our citizenry believing we are there to actually do some good. It sickens me that my fellow citizens continue to fall for this crap over and over and are in the process of falling for it once again in Iran.

To give you a more direct answer, I say, YES, of course we should be protecting the innocents of the world. Each of us should be doing all we can to care “for the least of us”, especially those of us, as you stated, who are so lucky to have been born where we were and are blessed to go to sleep every night in neighborhoods that are not exploding, in houses that have running water, refrigerators with food in it, happy, peaceful sleeping children, and wonderful neighbors.

This does not even begin to answer your questions, LTOR, but it did give me a chance to get a lot of this off my chest. Forgive my incoherent ramblings.

Excellent, excellent commentary, Foco and Coleen.

I wish more people out there would (like you two) really think things through and do some soul-searching about their beliefs and value systems. If more people did that, rather than just blurt out vacuous, one-note, bumper-style sloganisms, we’d all be in a hell of a better place!! So, thank you both for responding.

Foco, I agree with you 100%! Yes, absolutely there is “a difference between what most people consider a war, and the kind of police action [I am] contemplating. A limited intervention to stop a genocide seems….an honorable plying of the soldier's trade.” Your statement “How often do the countries with the means step up readily with their armies to perform those limited, truly humanitarian interventions?” is something I have felt (and been incensed by!!!) for the last 25 years, and of course is something that I fear will play out right now in Burma, and again – it breaks my heart….

And Coleen, beautifully said and I couldn’t agree more. You were neither rambling nor incoherent and I wish more people could so articulately get more things “off their chest”.

With regard to your initial post, however, Foco, you’ve lost me just a bit. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Tyler had a very eloquent comment on this very issue (about whether the troops were morally as reprehensible as those who sent them into harm’s way). I wish someone had the time to find his post and add it here…Suffice it to say, I just can’t stomach the thought of denigrating these kids (KIDS!) who never, ever thought they’d end up in the horrifying bowels of hell that they were led into. Of course, some were not psychologically fit to begin with, and where war crimes are being committed – obviously, that needs to be dealt with. But my wrath and outrage stays focused on the Administration, the corporate stockholders who profit from all the bloodshed, and those sitting safely at home, surrounded by loved ones and their favorite things who still “beat their chest” and so easily, lazily and mindlessly (!!!) conjure up words like “honor”, “democracy”, “freedom”, “patriotism”, etc. ultimately rendering these words absolutely meaningless…

Hi LTOR,

You wrote: "I think Tyler had a very eloquent comment on this very issue (about whether the troops were morally as reprehensible as those who sent them into harm’s way). I wish someone had the time to find his post and add it here..."

In case this helps, if you click on "Meet Our Authors", it takes you to a list of names. Click on Tyler and then scroll down the list of his articles. I think you can find it from there.

There might be an easier way but this is how I find old comments.

Hi Suza,

Thank you, you are always so gracious and willing to help! However, I think I mispoke. Rather than being a "post" it was a comment on someone else's thread, which of course would be very difficult to track back to. Oh well...

"I wish more people out there would (like you two) really think things through and do some soul-searching about their beliefs and value systems. If more people did that, rather than just blurt out vacuous, one-note, bumper-style sloganisms, we’d all be in a hell of a better place!!"

In case it's not obvious, and for what it's worth, I just have to add that I was in no way refering to Ojai Post-ers....I've just been posting the Burma petition plea on a few other forums, and...wow! Some of the comments and attitudes are quite disheartening and make me very, very world-weary.

LTOR, being an investigative reporter, I went straight to the horses mouth. I sent Tyler your comment above, and he replied as follows:

You can always go to google and type:

site:www.ojaipost.com keyword1 keyword2
for example:
site:www.ojaipost.com moral troops

Tyler found the link to the comment you might be thinking of. Not sure if this is it, but if it is, you can copy and paste it from here:

http://www.ojaipost.com/2007/08/counterrecruitment_at_nordhoff_1.shtml#comment-42427

Suza, you are a gem!

Found what I was referring to - and Coleen, you were on this thread way back then! You made some wonderful comments (as did evan, Lisa Snider, and Heather). What has stuck with me all these months, however, were the following comments by Tyler:

“a troop isn't a bullet - a troop is a human being, a 19 year old kid from Michigan or Arkansas or Florida. He or she may have been drawn to the military for the college funding or skills training”

“Of course we all have to accept responsibility for our own actions. But often in life, we have to put our trust in others, be it our military leaders, our company's executive team or our doctors. And so when those people fail to live up to their obligations, we bear the brunt of their decisions”

“The administration is also grossly misusing and abusing our National Guard. What did they sign up for? One weekend a month, two weeks a year, to help with state and local issues? And now they are on stop-loss, doing two, three, four tours of duty. Many are in their thirties and forties, professional firefighters, doctors, engineers, people who never anticipated going to an ill-fated war in the middle East”

“…finding fault with the troops themselves seems to me to be misguided when the finger should be squarely pointed at the people making the decisions to send troops to war”

In searching for these comments, I’m reminded of all the thought-provoking, informative, reflective and sometimes “spicy” dialogue that arose (just as they do now) out of evan’s many threads about what PEACE means to him. So hats off to you, evan!!!

http://www.ojaipost.com/2006/05/my_memorial_day_in_ojai.shtml

LTOR, I agree with your comments. And with Tyler's.

But I do not think it is finding fault with troops to decline to proclaim their mission honorable, when in fact it is not; or to decline to call their actions honorable, when in fact, the actions they are taking, with a few exceptions, are not; or to decline to call their participation in this horrific war honorable. There is no honor in it; many of the troops themselves will readily admit that.

That is one of the crimes of this administration and its apologists; they have taken the honor and dignity from these men and women in the military - people who by and large came with their honor and dignity intact.

We have a long way to go before we can restore honor to our servicemen and women. The road back has a few steps:

1) Impeach Bush and Cheney and turn them and their sorry gang over to the Hague for prosecution as war criminals;
2) Congress pull all funding from Bush's war, but fully fund withdrawal (see Representatiive Barbara Lee's proposal to do just this);
3) Fund and support a U.N. force to transition and repair Iraq to the extent possible;
4) Prosecute and imprison the war profiteers, and confiscate their gains;
5) Dismantle our war machine and arms complex, and convert to a defensive, not offensive, military, within the context of a more robust U.N. that monitors compliance with the same posture among all nations;
6) Support transition of our returning troops back to productive, useful lives;
7) Issue an apology to the world, and make clear: Never again.

In so doing, we just might restore our country's own honor and dignity, and once more help lead this world down a path to increased prosperity and peace.

I predict we are going to take most of these steps sooner or later, whether by choice or because we have run out of other options. Why not sooner?

Coleen: Regarding Cunningham: I feel our country was not harmed because the money in question came from private contractors, not the government, and the quality of the defense products was not compromised. A reported similar case regarding Ted Kennedys' sale of a house way above market value to an oriental 'investor' was ignored by government authorities as potentially being a bribe but when it comes to a war hero and patriot that risked everything for his country they just have to put him in jail to uphold the unholy laws the sick potentates in our government selectively enforce. The only time Ted Kennedy risked his life in this country was when he tried to drive over a bridge. We have to start being guided by morality and TRUTH JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY, as Clark Kent might say, instead of selective asinine application of establishment laws that put patriots in prison. The criminal government we have in Washington D.C. has always hated true patriots like Randy Cunningham and they still do. This is a terrible evil we must correct in this country. Ed Nemechek- 760 -246- 8059. P.S.: Coleen: If you're tired of working 2.5 days out of the work week (I feel it must be much more considering the government harrassment we have to endure) to pay for the hoards of fat cat politicians and bureaucrats feeding at the public trough at every level of government, I would encourage you and everyone else of like mind to join The John Birch Society (JBS.org)or 1-800-JBS-USA-1, which is the premiere organization working for 'Lower Taxes through LESS government, and with Gods' help, a better world!'. This is why of course that self-serving politicians and bureaucrats have such a deep seated aversion to The Birch Society because they can see their fat jobs and paychecks blowing in the wind when the American people wake up. We must work toward such an end as soon as possible.-Ed.

Foco:

We are on the same page about many, many things. Upon reflection, I realize that it must look like I was trying to use Tyler’s comments to bolster an argument against you. That was not my intention. I was in a hurry this morning, am still on medication, and I just happened to remember that one thread with a similar discussion and all the great points I thought it had. So, my apologies if that came across as bad form.

I am still very conflicted about the role of our soldiers in this horrible mess they’ve been put into, and I guess I just read your initial thread as a harsh indictment against them…

And I think I will just shut up until my mind is clearer. But on many of your other points, I am in full agreement!

But just one last hurrah…Ed, you’re joking right? Did you honestly just quote an imaginary fictional character from a comic book??? Thank you Ed Nemechek! I was having a rough day today and that actually made me spew milk out my nose!!! I’m still laughing and my cat looks worried…Bye for now.

LTOR: Regarding the Iraq war, I would sum up the problem by saying that it's the same old road show they've used in Korea, Vietnam, and now Iraq whereby our globalist (traitor) leaders in Washington get us into another ILLEGAL no-win war for the redistribution of the world (in this case the mid-east) and drag it on for years utilizing the strategy of 'how to lose the war while making it appear as though we're trying to win' meanwhile taking advantage of concomitant domestic turmoil at home to get their globalist legislation passed ("free trade" agreements, global warming initiatives, etc.) to obtain complete subjugation of America in their one world empire where never again will be heard the muse. -Ed Nemechek -760-246-8059

LTOR: If you don't think Clark Kent is real, you probably don't believe in Santa Claus either.-Ed.

Hey Ed Numbnutz

2 questions:

1. have you ever considered living out of America?

2. if i can get everyone who reads the ojai post to sign a petition that they are completely uninterested in your views, will you cease posting?

The Foco: Bush, Cheny and their gang should be tried in American courts, not any foreign court like The Hague. We have to prevent any foreign intervention including the U.N. into our domestic affairs or we will find our local officials, police, military, and even ourselves on trial in some tin-pot countrys' kangaroo court approved of course by the U.N. tin-pot potentates seeking our defeat(see: getusout.org). We must return to the era of our non-involvement in foreign affairs and take care of our own country for a change.-Ed Nemechek

Anonymous: Question-1: No. This is the greatest nation in history and we must prevent its' destruction by a lot of bubble headed do-gooders who want to distribute what's left of our wealth among the dead-beat nations of the world. --Question-2: I'd hate to see you go to all that trouble but-No, the conversations here are too interesting.-Ed.

Ed- Great answer...

BUT...

I don't believe you have ever entered into a conversation with anybody.

All you do is stand on your birchwood soapbox and spout the most antiquated paranoid delusional garbage that has been thoroughly discredited.

Over and over and over.

Broken record.

No one believes your crap.

Try listening, for once.

Become a conversationalist.

Assume a new identity.

Have some fun, for a change...

Coleen: Regarding the John Birch Society you mentioned, I feel that they would not agree with my position on the Randy Cunningham case,in fact they say so- (see:JBS.org (search: randy cunningham)- but I nevertheless feel very strongly about it. I'm tired of seeing patriots get kicked around in this country and I'm also tired of the many 'laws' being waved around at every level of government and exalted above traditional morality by power seeking politicians trying to debase Americans into tyranny under the guise of environmentalism, global warming, alternative energy, etc., et al. If we fall for these canards we will be suckered into the dust bin of history, over run by modern day barbarians using dependable and real sources of energy (probably paid for by our foreign aid money). Ed Nemechek

Hi Ed,
You make a lot of good points. I don't agree with all of your points all of the time, but you are right on when it comes to politicians and the government trying to take more control over our lives. Keep up the good work Ed !

Brian

Anonymous: We're not in this world to engage in mindless prattle for entertainment, we're here to fight evil and build a better world. If all the people who primarily engage in pursuit of fun and entertainment were to pay attention to what their leaders are REALLY doing to their freedom our country would be restored in short order.-Ed Nemechek.

wait, wait. we're in this world to fight evil? the purpose of life, explained in such depth and glittering detail!

sorry, Ed. once again, you overstep your bounds of whom you represent. YOU are in this world "to fight evil". (incidentally, what's your superhero name?) i am not in this world for any such thing...so, you have fun fighting your whole life away. i'mma work for Peace.

AND, just as a general rule of journalism (as well as Life), it's not usually very wise to pull 100% of your information from one source: in your case, jbs.org.
i haven't really looked at it much, so i'm not making a specific criticism of that site, but i'm just saying in general it's a better-rounded position to have multiple, diverse sources for your opinions.

get back to "the good fight", whatever that is.

Evan-

John Birchers begin their meetings by taking their clothes off and dancing around life-sized dolls of J. Edgar Hoover.

Then they get back to fighting evil and building a better world.

Kinky bunch!!

Evan,
Would you intervene to save the monks?

Brian

Brian, thanks for asking. i suspect that's a leading question, and perhaps even rhetorical, but that's just me using my past experiences of you to make judgments. this feels disconnected from the original post, but sometimes that's how these things go.
i'll proceed as though your question is genuine:

i'm decidedly undecided, which i know is probably not what you want to hear. of course i want the monks to be safe, but i also want the people with the guns to be safe. putting more people with guns between the two seems like a cheap (and ultimately temporary) solution. generally speaking, i'm at a place in my life where i do not support the claimed "right" of any human to enforce anything at the end of a gun (ie, through threat of harm or death). so while i do not support the junta in claiming power through superior might, i equally would not support another force (U.N., U.S., or any other) in threatening the junta and taking away their power by the very same means. ending violence with violence doesn't strike me as a positive transaction or equation.

maybe that's a non-answer, but that's where i am right now. i'm always open to learning and evolving. what would you do?

Thanks Brian, I hope you keep on doing the same.-Ed Nemechek.

Anonymous: In view of your last posting I now know why you register as Anonymous. -Ed.

Yes, Ed.

But I notice you do not deny dancing nude. (see jbs.org (search dancing nude) you will be amazed)

evan: I would reply by remembering a great line in history attributed to George Washington and others: "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing". This certainly holds true today in our country where evil rules from the top down through our government agencies and good is crushed at every opportunity beneath the jack-boot of government that then delivers our children to us in flag draped coffins and tells us to be proud of their sacrifice for the increased power and profits of the anti-American Washington D.C. potentates and their corporate backers. Anyone who says they would rather work for peace INSTEAD of opposing evil is really kidding themselves. For failing to successfully oppose evil does lead to a type of peace,-the 'peace' of the grave.-Ed Nemechek-760-246-8059.

Sorry, but my foggy brain and I feel compelled to comment…

Evan, I support you wholeheartedly in what you do, and I admire you immensely; hopefully I’ve made that clear in prior posts.

But I disagree with you on this issue. Pacifism is an absolutely noble and admirable ideology and I commend you for your dedication to keep that alive in people’s mind and “on the table” during these times of great turmoil, uncertainty and ugliness. But my big question still is: when all other means fails, does one stand around, turn and look away and commit oneself to be overly concerned with the needs and safety of murderers and torturers at the expense of innocents? Remember, this is quite a unique situation in Burma. This is not just your everyday civil dispute between two evenly opposed groups of people or tribes, nor is it your average civil war. This is a brutal, bullying, horrific, lunatic regime who is starving and demoralizing its people, detaining the democratically elected leader, Nobel Peace Prize winner and one of the most revered civil rights leaders in recent times (Aung San Suu Kyi) and KILLING PACIFISTS. And the “civilized” world just might stand by (as it has for decades) and LET this happen when a limited intervention and (comparatively) minor show of muscle is likely all that is needed to restore to the Burmese people what is rightfully theirs and give back to them what you and I take for granted every day. To me, this would not be a misguided or abusive form of violence but a major humanitarian effort. In my eyes, to not step in and take action is unconscionable and akin to looking away when a child, woman or elderly person is being horribly abused.

Sometimes, when I am conflicted about issues I try to bring things closer to home, and ask myself: “What would I do in that situation?” So I pose these (hopefully relevant) questions to you:

What would you do if someone broke into your house and (God forbid) threatened your family with violence? Or were in the process of harming your neighbors who were helpless to do anything to defend themselves? Do you think your ideals would need to be altered in any way?

I know you to be intelligent, mature and quite capable of addressing these questions, so I hope you don’t feel as if I am being combative or “baiting” you in any way because there is nothing further from the truth. I am still to this day thankful to the many people around me who (when I was younger) insisted on forcing me to test and push my beliefs and values to their very limits...

(But I do recognize this has all probably been on the wrong thread and I do feel bad about perhaps starting it in the first place. Yikes, does that make me a “hijacker”?)

A huge fan,

LTOR

Did anyone catch the Blackwater hearings? A few interesting facts:

1) Blackwater has been paid over $600M just last year alone for its Iraq work, under just one of its contracts. Each year of its contracts in Iraq have been between $300M and $600M.

2) Blackwater currently has about 1,000 employees in Iraq. Its employees are paid on average $600/day.

3) Asked what his salary was, the CEO refused to say anything more than that it was "more than a million." He refused to disclose Blackwater's profits over the last 7 years.

4) Blackwater did not exist as a company until ten years ago. It was formed by cronies of the Bush administration - CEO Prince is the son of a Republican bigwig in Michigan.

5) Blackwater admits that when its employee, while on duty, murdered an Iraqi security guard in cold blood, it spirited the employee out Iraq within 2 days. (Does anyone know what the punishment is if one of us helped a murderer get out of the country to escape justice?)

6) The FBI agents investigating Blackwater in Iraq are being guarded by ... yep, Blackwater.

Let's see:
$600 times 365 times 1,000 = $219M.
$600M less $219M = $381M.

OK, so they have a couple of helicopters, armored vehicles, planes - and lots of guns, bombs and ammo - for their 1,000 employees. But still, $381M leaves a lot of room.

Anyone still wondering why we are in Iraq?

Hint: Its not WMD, its not "democracy," heck, its not even primarily oil. Its yours and my tax dollars. That's the real pot of gold. Much easier than drilling oil, putting it in barrels, and selling it (though you can bet the people driving this war certainly are going to get hefty payments from the multinationals to deliver over "contracts" for the Iraqi oil).

LTOR:
breathe and cease worrying...your past behavior and how you've characterized this exchange is entirely sufficient to dissipate any defensiveness before it even starts. i know you're asking and presenting genuinely and in a spirit that i can appreciate.

i'm not going to pretend that i have THE solution (or even A solution) to this complex and unique issue. [side discussion: IS it that unique? i mean, vastly powerful-armed-violent force beating the shit out of a vastly outgunned proletariat?]

i dont have answers to your questions, although they are topics that Jessie and i talk about in our own home, particularly after Noa's birth. in the philosophy of nonviolence and compassionate communication, there is such a thing as the use of "protective force" (for example, tackling or shoving a child out of the way of a car). so, i don't know. and i hope that's a perfectly valid answer, for me, for this moment. i think i'm in that place you were, where those who have more life experience "[insist] on forcing me to test and push my beliefs and values to their very limits." that being the case, i sincerely THANK YOU. you are part of who i am and who i will be.

Anonymous 12:48, i'm listening to Air America right now, and Blackwater is a major topic of the day. the things you've outlined (and more) are terribly, terribly true. these things exist NOW, directly being done in our names.

Thank you, evan! One of many, many tough issues...

More from The Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization website:

http://www.unpo.org/

(And yes, I do find this situation unique and more urgent than many of the other crisis situations in the world right now (but perhaps that is just my own personal myopia) - everyone can decide for themselves. And thank you for your graciousness in letting this thread veer off in the many tangents it has! I myself find it all very connected, but maybe that's just me...)

Re Blackwater: Republican corporate welfare is a marvel to behold.

What a great example of what the "free market" ideologues really mean by "free market": What amounts to a temp agency with 1,000 employees hires those employees out to its client for gross revenues of $600M/year.

The services of those employees are available in the "free market" for $600/day.

Oh, no oops, not correct: Turns out our military personnel does the job on 24/7 schedule as a direct hire at about $100/day. $600 per day that the Blackwater guys get is somehow inflated above the free market going rate... wonder how?

So: The Blackwater temp agency pays its 1,000 employees approx. $150M a year (not $219M, that would mean they work 365 days a year - 250 days is the high end of realistic), and hires them out to its client at north of $600M.

(If the Blackwater temp agency paid market rates for its employees, it would pay $25M/year, selling them on for $600M...)

How does it do it? By honest competition and bidding? No sir. No-bid contracts and cronyism. (I.e. the equivalent of a monopoly.)

So are Republicans free marketeers, or monopolists?

Or just common thieves?

Meanwhile: If the Republicans are so against honest work for an honest wage that they have to commandeer the government to pay their lazy asses the exorbitant amounts they could never earn on their own: Can't they at least do something positive?

How about this: Instead of paying $600M a year in our tax dollars for 1,000 mercenaries to shoot up innocent Iraqis, why not $600M a year for 1,000 young adults to upgrade hiking trails in the national parks?

Wouldn't that be better?

Evan,
Let me phrase the question another way. If you and your family were a victim of an armed robbery (God forbbid) would you lift a finger to protect your family?

Brian

Brian, i understood the question the first time. your "rephrase" doesn't seem any different/better/clearer to me, and i've already answered. i asked what YOU'D do, and i meant it.

perhaps you'd also like to address why $600M/year is better spent on mercenaries than on hiking trails.

Evan,
I guess I would have to take that as you would do nothing to protect your family or at least you would be so indecisive that no one would have any confidence that you would act. I think that speaks volumes to how you view the world.
On the other stuff, I don't agree with your premise.

Brian

twice now, you've refused to answer the question, or to even entertain possible answers as dialogue.

your response is a classic, fear-based "critique" of nonviolent principles...are you trying to indict me, or should we have an open and honest discussion? i'm sorry that i haven't mapped out all me responses to all the hypothetical situations i can think of yet. tell me, how old were you when you achieved enlightenment?

for the sake of throwing gasoline on this: what would be the goal of taking violent action to protect oneself or one's family? self-preservation? survival for its own sake doesn't seem to hold tremendous value...perhaps if i'm willing to be violent just to allowed to continue to exist, i'm not making very good use of this life to start with. please note, however, that i'm open to the "protective use of force".

and speaking of false premises, yours - that violence is the only answer to armed confrontation - is as false and self-fulfilling as they come. conflict is inevitable, combat is optional.

"what would be the goal of taking violent action to protect oneself or one's family"
If you believe your life has no value then I guess there would be no goal.
I don't know what your idea of an open and honest discussion is, no doubt one where I'm suppose to agree with you.
You are the one who cannot answer a simple question as to whether to protect your family or not! If you can't answer that why should I answer any of your questions.

Brian

"If you and your family were a victim of an armed robbery (God forbid) would you lift a finger to protect your family?"

Brian, are you kidding? Are the bees getting to you?

I too have a rich fantasy life. Yes, I too would be like Charles Bronson. Deathwish, baby! Break into my house, I'll hunt you and your kind down in the streets.

Right. Brian, what would you really do, besides fantasize?

Let's consider some circumstances, and I can tell you exactly what you will do. (All circumstances presume you have loaded firearms in your house, and like a loyal NRA man, are hell of sure you are ready to use them):

Circumstance #1: Real criminals armed with real guns bust into your house in broad daylight while you and your family are having breakfast.

Here is what you will do in real life:

a) Freeze and shit yourself, while one sticks a pistol barrel in your mouth, another violates your family while you watch and they then ransack your place and take off. You live.

Or:

b) You make a break for your gun. They shoot you dead.

Circumstance #2: The 12 year old brat from next door plays criminal and breaks into your house with a penknife. You wake up, hearing someone downstairs, get your gun, pull off the safety, and shoot the kid in the back as he runs. The kid maybe lives, maybe is paralyzed, maybe just wounded. You hit the NRA circuit and tell everyone how you saved your family because you were armed and ready.

Circumstance #3 (fantasy version): You wake up hearing a burglar downstairs. You go down, flip on the light, point your gun at him and he freezes until the police arrive and collar the criminal. What a hero!

Circumstance #3 (real life version): You wake up hearing a burglar downstairs. You go down, flip on the light, and while your blinking looking for the guy he a) runs out the back door, b) shoots you dead, or c) you see him moving, shoot - and oops, its your kid downstairs getting midnight snack. You rush him/her to the hospital and pray.

I remember some years ago driving along in the city and seeing this guy knock a woman down right on the sidewalk. Instinctively I jumped out of the car and ran straight up there - what the hell is going on? I stood between the guy and the woman and told him he'd better back off.

Then she stood up behind me, told me to mind my own business, and stepped back over to him. Yep, what a hero I was.

I do not advocate standing by watching helpless people get hurt, when you've got the ability and power to stop it. I think any real human being will step in and do something about a situation right in front of you. That includes evan, and I am sure it includes you, Brian. It might even be a hell of a stupid thing to do. But then, we're human.

That is completely different from the false hypothetical of "would you lift a finger to protect your family"? Of course you would, evan would, anyone would - hypothetically. Wait until it happens, and we'll see who really does something. And what they do - because saving your family all depends on the circumstances, which - unless you are going to be reckless with your family's lives - most likely will require you to stand the hell down and do whatever they say. That's just reality. My money is on evan doing the best he can, if God forbid he is faced with the situation.

Meanwhile, that hypothetical is not even on topic for this thread, which is dealing with the question of not you or me doing something to protect our family, but our organized army doing something about a much larger scale situation. The answer to that is: They won't, because that is not what they are organized to do.

But they could be. And maybe they should be.

Dear Evan,
Thank you very much for getting our film. Our intention is not to glorify war, but to recognize the sacrifices these young men and women gave of themselves. It is interesting that an event from over 65 years ago can still create such a debate. I hope that everyone will come out and see the film for themselves and we will be available for comments after the showing.
In Times of War: Ray Parker is part of the Ojai Film Festival
Friday, October 5th , 3pm at the Ojai Arts Center.
You can also find out more about our Documentary Project at www.intimesofwar.us
Sincerely,
Mark and Christine Bonn
Director/Producer In Times of War: Ray Parker

Foco,
I think it goes to exactly to the topic of this thread because what you would do in a situation in your community speaks to the larger community of the world. One reason the people and the Monks in Burma are getting killed by their government right now as we speak is because the people are not allowed to have guns. We live in this Shangrala here in Ojai where we are relatively safe, partially because of our geographic location, but bad things can happen even here. A few years ago there was a home invasion up in the east end. If we ever had a large natural disaster or a crude nuclear attack the police and fire would be stretched to their limits and people would have to rely on themselves to protect themselves and their property. Look what happened during the Rodney King riots in LA, The police were powerless to maintain order for days. I'm not saying go around packing heat and live in paranoia, just be prudent and be prepared. Just like you should have enough food and water to survive for at least two weeks on your own.

Brian

Posted by: The Foco | October 3, 2007 11:19 PM

The Foco:

You have an extremely accurate sense of how things actually work.

Mark (and Christine),

thank you so much for commenting here! and thank you for your film...although i was skeptical (as i hope i made clear in the original post/review), it is very clear to me that you do not - and did not - glorify war. my few criticisms are of Ray's comments themselves and of war in general, but the film is fantastic, particularly for how brief it is. for any who purchase the dvd (will they be on sale at the screening?), the Extras are very worthwhile as well.

it is interesting indeed how rich and relevant these issues still are, and that we can have a 40-some comment discourse arising from it. the subtopics in this thread are diverse, but seldom "off topic", and that is the organic nature of blogs, i'm learning.

Brian, i'm done with you. it's sufficiently clear to me that you haven't actually read anything i've written. i don't know why i tease myself by pushing for dialogue with you (which is not where you're "supposed to agree with" me).

To comment on postings by evan, The Foco, and Brian, regarding the clear-cut basic right of self-protection, which some people can't seem to comprehend, I wish to make an observation that our ancestors who built this country instinctivly understood, but many people today seem to miss for some foggy minded reason, which is why we have the escalating vicious crime of today. That simple and traditional observation is that armed citizens are the answer to crime, not the police or pretentious government potentates who are disarming us and don't know shellac from shinola or even care. To further elaborate I would re-assert and paraphrase a musical lament of yesteryear: ’Where have all the good people gone-gone to the graveyard every -one? -killed by the armed criminals the police protect- by disarming citizens the criminals attack.’ Could this become the funeral dirge for our great Christian Civilization of America that our ancestors sacrificed and died for? It very well could in view of the depraved and psychopathic efforts of our bureaucratic de-facto commissars and their police lackeys to disarm and persecute Americans who exercise their God-given constitutional rights to own and bear firearms to protect themselves and families. The result of this, of course, is the continual reduction of us to a nation of disarmed sheeple blindly marching our way toward the slaughterhouse of the planned Police State. Quite apparently, the strategy being employed by the political bosses of the bureaucratic aspiring commissars and police sycophants is to deliberately release criminals of the worst sort into our neighborhoods to create an ever escalating crime rate to justify ever increasing taxation for ever expanding bureaucratic and police empires to ultimately impose their will, not on the perverted criminal element they created, but on us as the disarmed ’citizens’ of their planned authoritarian state. The most glaring example of this strategy is the forcible introduction into our neighborhoods of perverted sexual predators to prey on our children and others as news reports continually indicate heinous crimes by perpetrators on the street with criminal records longer than your arm. Of course when that happens people, encouraged by the prostitute media, run around like barnyard chickens and enact worse than useless laws like Megans’ law, (which reportedly would not have saved Megan ), and anti-gun laws creating more mega-million dollar bureaus to administer more asininity. The solution obviously is to put these perpetrators in prison for life and encourage citizens to routinely arm themselves at all times for protection and violent crime will drop to next to zero quickly instead of escalating as it now is under our present leaders who apparently conspire to bring about empire building through escalating crime and care nothing about human life or suffering. We should see: www.jbs.org (search: gun control) and demand leaders that protect our safety and rights instead of engaging in mindless party line voting and malfeasance protecting their fat paychecks. We must protect ourselves from the criminals in the streets and the criminals in office. . Ed Nemechek (760-246-8059)

No one needs to take away your guns in order to conquer you, Ed. When the people you fear wish to bring you to your knees, they will cut off the water, gas, electricity, and all communications services to your community. They will jam the public airwaves, including Ham, shortwave, CB, VHF, UHF, FM and AM. All of these things can be done from a computer terminal somewhere. You might need a gun to protect yourself from your neighbors if any of this evercomes to pass, but do you really think that your oppressors, real or imagined, need to fear your firearms?

Ed, if guns are the answer to crime, then mace is the answer to rape. also, i thought nuclear weapons were supposed to be a deterrent to war, and capital punishment a deterrent to major crimes. and here we are, with more nukes than it would take to literally destroy our planet many times over, and more people on death row than anywhere else. curious.

and the lyric is "where have all the soldiers gone, gone to graveyards every one". if you want to be a citizen soldier, Pete knew where you'd end up.

Dear Evan,
Yes we will be bringing along some DVDs for sale. We also will have a few copies of our other documentary “Letters To Defiance”. Reading the above debate, I feel compelled to mention this film. It consists of letters written home during WWII with comic illustrations for addresses. At first, the 615 envelopes seemed to be the story, but when we read the letters we found an almost Orwellian prediction of the future of nuclear warfare. On the day the bomb was dropped our subject, Corporal Francis Seibert, wrote home to his mom about his worries that this bomb will fall into enemy hands. It was amazing to us that this 20 year old kid from a small town in Ohio was able to grasp, so eloquently, the fate of our world. If folks can’t make the showing, both DVDs can also be purchased on our website www.intimesofwar.us.
In closing, I have to say it is refreshing to see such debate. You might not change someone’s mind, but at least you can open their eyes.

So, Ed, the answer to crime and corruption is to arm every moron who has two brain cells and a trigger finger, reinstate vigilante justice, and wait for the entire criminal element to either blow each other away or be exterminated by the righteous? I guess that would be an interesting solution to the leaf blower problem.