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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ

Federal Reserve (Part 2 of 5):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A

Millenium-

I've been following your investment advice lately (buying synthetic puts on EuroDollar futures hedged by convertible spreads on short-term Treasury Inflation Protected bonds) and I'm just about broke.

But I still feel like I'm doing the right thing.

Do you have any further advice for me?

Thanks so much.

I find your information so intuitively appealing.

Isn't anyone else getting sick of the psycho-babble of these two raving lunatics?

Frequent Claims Rejected

Anyone that provides a link to the Financial Times article about Alan Greenspan's view of the current financial market and labels that link "ALAN GREENSPAN WARNS OF US COLLAPSE...." either didn't read the article or is a) unbelieveably paranoid to the core b) simpleminded or
c) hoping nobody really investigates his outlandish, inflammatory propaganda. His past posts are littered with this kind of illogical, non-factual, jump-to-false-conclusions, fear-mongering style of "journalism".

And as for Jock, well the previous thread he started and then abandoned says it all...

Millienm and Jock are the tits!!

this news yesterday, after the (Private) 'Fed' dropped interest rates 1/2 percent. investors dumped US Treasury notes, accelerating the end of global banker support of the government war machine, and put their money into ownership of corporate stocks instead. Citibank dropped their interest rates a half point to match the CFR (Corrupt Federal Reserve) to release more cash into the consumer housing and spending markets.

its beginning to be clear now, HOW we will get the wish of the global bankers, as expressed by Greenspawn -- the era of small US government was ushered in by inflating the US govt to unprecedented & unimaginable highs -- a $46-plus Trillion debt -- unleashing its war machine on the world for a hundred years (the 20th century) -- then collapsing the bubble to the applause of an ENTIRE world of victims of the bankers aerospace-military machine, for which the US government and people will be blamed. [and rightly so for our rapacious automotive, oil, and consumer ravaging of Latin American, Africa, the Middle East, the worlds forests and rainforests, and oceans.]

the next US administration, if the US govt survives, will inherit the bad karma of a century, and perhaps even the blame if the corporate media propaganda machine remains unchanged. no assets, no cash, no domestic support, and the ire of an entire planet set to correct ten decades of abuse at the hands of the 'American' soldier, agents, business men, and consumer population.

not a pretty site for those who experience the world only through their televisions and windshields.

as the Tokyo, London, Zurich, Bonn and Shanghai bankers open their arms to the windfall from the entire US corporate, real estate, resource, commodities, and intellectual property markets.

the US citizen slaves will be left with their bicycles and rotting asphault, and manure and compost.

if only we were left with our water rights, what a garden we could have raised!

It's quite difficult for me to see through the smoke and mirrors of economic theory. I was not brought up in that world. I was raised in the world of religion and over the years I've been able to penetrate to the dark heart of that world. It's illusion. Create the problem and then sell the solution.

With finances, I can't quite see the trick. It's like watching a magician. You know there's a trick but you can't see it.

The Fed lowers interest rates. So that means lending and borrowing are facilitated. More debt money is created out of nothing. More paper money floods out and devalues what is out there. It's like one more big shopping spree and gambling binge using monopoly money.

Those onto the game are the winners. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. Gamble, buy and die. So what? Nothing matters but living in the now. The people that get hurt are those who don't want to or can't stomach going along with the charade. Someone is going to get hurt in the end but the gamblers and cheaters think it will not be them. In fact, it usually isn't. The psychopaths are smart enough to stay ahead of the game and get out before their bluff is called.

The solution for me is withdraw from the system. Live very simply close to nature and observe the craziness from a safe distance. I'm trying to understand it but because it is crazy appearing normal, confusion is its modus operandi; and therefore is not rational and undestandable except by getting a very high perspective.

The devil is in the details. I don't think economists have a clue about what they're doing but they pretend they to. Someone like Green....I can't even remember his name...burg, field, oh, ya, span. He's either a moral retard and a very evil operator. But name calling doesn't help my understanding.

I can see more clearly the kind of financial system that would work for me. Paper currency would be OK if it is controlled by the majority of the people. It's like the three bears: not too hot and not too cold but just right. And I'm against all lending and borrowing on principle; that would sort of stop the whole corrupt system in its tracks but by this time practically everyone is addicted to the scam or wants to be.

The problem for money addicts is that cuts them out of their game. To live a peaceful, sane, stable life is boring. They've got to get their kicks by gambling and hurting others, and all the other pathological, patriarchal character traits of unbalanced personalities.

We see it going on at a micro level here in Ojai, the big cars and houses, shopping at the big boxes, the secret push for development, hypocrisy over the chain store issue, and on and on.

Anyway, thanks for bringing this issue of money up. It's vital to understand because it affects so much. It's been the missing link in my education. It's mysterious probably because there's nothing there but hot air. I mean you can talk about sex and religion but try asking someone how much money they have. That's the big secret.

Well said Millennium!

A simple solution is setting up another currency independent of
Greenback and other currencies. It is devoid of interest and charges
per transaction. It is transparent (inthat you can see another members
account balance)

Shoot on over to www.cyclos.org. There is software which is able to
handle an economy. Basically it is a banking/ebay style software.

Only when we have sincere and free minds which creates an abundant
economy which in turn creates abundant technology.

please read Tom Greckos books. They take you deeper into the current
state of our economy.

Stewart

Money is nothing unless the source, the *thing* that the money, barter mechanism represents, has real value to give to the the one who accepts the money in exchange for something else of tangible value. When *money* was turned to enforce ignorance and compulsion, became something other than a way of fair trading commodities of need between willing and informed traders, we created economic disaster.

wondrous Bob,

should you have said "universal and complete ignorance and compulsion"?!

as to Voldemort, some readers may not be up on the latest ... at the conclusion of Book Seven of the Potter series, with nearly everyone from Dumbledore's Army and the Order of the Phoenix on hand to see, in the Great Hall at Hogwarts, Harry slays, finally brings about the permanent death of, Voldemort ... actually Voldemort kills himself by attempting to kill Harry ... Harry holding the Elder Wand, and possessed and protected by the love of his family and friends and a whole growing world of integrity ...

For those interested, here is a simple, but fascinating video on the nature of money and debt.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

I clicked on the link above and watched most of the "Money as Debt" video during my afternoon nap time...will catch the rest over the week-end. They should have showed us this in sixth grade! Maybe other people already know where money comes from but I needed this basic de-mystifying money course. Now I have to find out if it's really true!

Here's a synopsis of the show:

"Paul Grignon's 47-minute animated presentation of "Money as Debt" tells in very simple and effective graphic terms what money is and how it ... all » is being created. It is an entertaining way to get the message out. The Cowichan Citizens Coalition and its "Duncan Initiative" received high praise from those who previewed it. I recommend it as a painless but hard-hitting educational tool and encourage the widest distribution and use by all groups concerned with the present unsustainable monetary system in Canada and the United States..."

Giannini, thanks for putting up the 'Money as Debt' link. I've been aware that this was occuring but did not know the historical context What happens when the giant scam bubble bursts?

Giannini, whoever you are, thank you for posting the "Money as Debt" link. I highly recommend watching this 47 minute production. Background on sources and producers can be found on the following sites:

http://moneyasdebt.net/

www.paulgrignon.com

PS For anyone who lands at the bottom of this page, the actual link to the "Money as Debt" video can be found by scrolling up a little ways to Giannini's post on September 21.

21 September Financial Times of London: In an unusually eventful week for financial markets, the dollar hit a series of historic lows, oil hit a record high and gold rose to levels not seen in nearly 28 years!

The historic capstone to this economic avalanche was the decision on Tuesday by the Federal Reserve, the US central bank, to cut its main overnight lending rate from 5.25 per cent to 4.75 per cent. After two hundred years of thumbing their noses at British banking direction of the their money supply, the Americans have now acknowledged a greater and external power.

Ojai is an ideal community for embracing the concept of "Our Community Dollar."

I know this idea has been kicked around on and off for years, here in Ojai and other communities.
Maybe this is an idea whose time has come! It connects right into the Chain Store issue and would support the "buy locally" ideal of the Ojai Valley Green Coalition.

http://www.communitydollar.com/our_vision.asp

YIKES! THE SECOND LINK I POSTED ABOVE DOES NOT GO TO THE ONE I HAD IN MIND . I WILL SEE IF I CAN GET TYLER TO REMOVE IT!

Suza-

Since you seem to be interested and concerned about money and the economic system, allow me to direct you to:

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9833685

which is one of many articles on the bank run in England earlier this week.

Needless to say headlines such as "BANKS FAIL" or "RUN TO BANK AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE" will attract many more readers than "Banks run normally, status quo continues".

Economics is referred to as the "Dismal Science" and anyone who tackles it better be prepared to look deeply into it and allow for a wide range of viewpoints.

The "Money as Debt" video link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

has a link to:

www.socialistworld.net

So it's good to know where everyone is coming from and what their points of view and agendas are.

The "facts" as I see it is that we live in "capitalist" system.
Socialism is a wonderful and lofty theoretical (perhaps even "spiritual") point of view.
Unfortunately it usually doesn't work out the way it's intended. (The latest "experiment" is Chavez in Venezuela).

In any event spend your money wisely.

Thank you, Anonymous, I read the link you provided above and admit I'm way in over my head!

Yes, I agree "it's good to know where everyone is coming from and what their points of view and agendas are."

I'm curious, can you give me some idea of what would happen if enough of us withdrew all our money from the bank, paid mainly with cash and money orders (with bartering, exchange for services and community currency system thrown into the mix)plus cancelled and paid all credit cards and reduced debt to the bare minimum in every creative, practical and legal way possible. Would this sort of "peaceful protest" help change the world for the better?

I'm not really qualified to answer your question.

The last great run on the bank in a major country that I am aware of was in Argentina around 2000.

Thank you, I appreciate your honest reply.

for Dennis and others who do not have video web service ...

From Corrupt Federal Reserve, Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ

"The real truth of the matter is that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government since the days of Andrew Jackson." Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1933

1775 -- King George III of England outlawed the interest-
free independent currency that the American colonies were producing and using for themselves. George forced the colonies to borrow money from the Central Bank of England at interest, putting the American colonies into debt. War Of Independence declared.

"The refusal of King George III to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system which freed the ordinary people from the clutches of the money manipulators was probably the prime cause of the revolution."
Benjamin Franklin

1983 -- War Of Independence Won

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies ... If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency ... the banks and corporations that grow up around them will deprive the people of their property until their children wake up homeless on the continent." Thomas Jefferson

A central bank controls interest rate and the money supply, inflation. It can only produce debt, servitude and inflation. Only that central bank can later issue more money, which is required to pay off the interest that it mandated. A never-ending spiral of inflation and indebtedness results. It can only grow, never be paid off.

"If you want to remain slaves of the bankers and pay for the costs of your own slavery, let the bankers continue to create money and control the nation's credit." Sir Josiah Stamp, 1913

At the turn of the 20th century the dominant families in the business world were the Rockefellers (viz J.D. Rockefeller), the Morgans (viz J.P. Morgan), the Warburgs (viz. Paul Warburg), and the Rothschilds (viz Baron Rockefeller.) They pushed for legislation to create a private central bank. The bankers knew that the government and public were wary of such scams, as many had been implemented and defeated during the 19th century. Their strategy then was to frighten the public, then run legislation through the back door of the government. In 1907 JP Morgan published rumours that a prominent New York bank was facing insolvency and would declare bankruptcy. A mass hysteria was orchestrated by Morgan and his ilk, causing a run on the banks, who then had to call in their loans, causing much loss of property and businesses.

"The Morgan interest took advantage ... to precipitate the panic of 1907, guiding it shrewdly as it progressed." Fredrik Allen, Life Magazine

The banker's henchman, Senator Nelson Aldrich, was then appointed to head up a Congressional Hearing Committee to review the 1907 Panic. Aldrich's committee then recommend the creation of a private central bank to 'protect' the people and government. Aldrich married into the Rockefeller family.

In 1910 JP Morgan hosted a private meeting of bankers at his Jekyl Island Estate. There they wrote the legislation to create the Federal Reserve Bank which they would put through Congress. Woodrow Wilson was then sponsored by the bankers, who ran him for the US Presidency. In return he promised to support the Federal Reserve Act. They elected him US President.

In 1913, two days before Christmas, when the majority of Congressman were absent, home with families, Wilson put the Federal Reserve Act through Congress. A, the, private FED was created!

"A world banking system was being set up here ... A Superstate controlled by International Bankers ... Acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure. The FED has usurped the Government!"
Congressman Louis McFadden, 1913

Wilson later admitted his crime, and told the country of his regret:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is now controlled by its system of credit. We are no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." Woodrow Wilson, 1919

From 1914 to 1919 the FED doubled the cash in circulation. They loaned enormous sums to small banks to loan to the public. Then, in 1920, the FED called in the loans -- collapsing 5400 small banks around the country which were in competition with the Federal Reserve and its big bank allies. The FEDs monopoly was complete.

for JP Morgans 1929 Market Crash,
see Corrupt Federal Reserve, Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A

make that the year 1783, not 1983, war of independence won!

Just my two cents - I think it a wise and prudent idea for all of us individually to get our debt-based consumerism under control (and something that the current administration seems to have no ability or desire to do). So, to pay down all and eventually eliminate all "bad debt" is something that any financially-wise person would want to do (and can only be good for the economic future health of the country as a whole). The credit card industry and their astronomical interest rates, fees, etc. wouldn't be allowed to operate the way they currently do without consumer participation.

But, to withdraw all of our money from the banks and/or stockmarket generating a "run", to me (and my very little understanding of economics) would spell disaster for our economy -something that I'm sure Millenium and others with ulterior motives (unless he'd like to explain here exactly what type of political system he would like to see replace our capitalistic one) would love to see happen.

Anonymous is right, socialism (the way MT would like to have it) just doesn't work on a large scale. Some may have an argument about Cuba, which I think is a great place to visit, but how many of us would want to live there? A more moderate approach such as they've been successful with in Scandinavia, France, etc. - I say "bring it on"! But I've been to Venezuela before Chavez and I have a few friends there. Sure it had it's problems, injustices, etc. But there is no way I'd feel confident or comfortable there right now - dictators (whether Socialist or Fascist) are still dictators. They each just focus on oppressing and squelching the rights and freedoms of different segments of society.

I wish more qualified people would comment on this issue, because I do feel it an important discussion for this country to have..

yes, of course, Mille. the counter-parties in many important financial derivatives hang out in the same bar after work. it's a private ponzi scheme, hard to get in.

the biggest problem are the many copy cat derivative traders and the fact that all the managers use the same risk tools. in other words, they are all blind at the same time at the worst time, trying to follow the lead of the rich, leading us to ruin. The rich money is always flowing into something less volatile, their Hedge profits transfered to Private Equity-operating company funds and real estate.

BTW, I hope most have already moved any investments out of U.S. $ funds to overseas funds. the only exception is oil and gas of course.

that's a start, LongTimeOjai, getting our "debt-based consumerism under control". and then all consumerism, which is to say 90 percent of the energy use, waste, pollution, and shopping which we in the US engage in. if our health and security matter, not to mention our immediate future a few months down the line as to our relationship with Mother Earth and our Ojai and Ventura County neighbors ... and the runaway transient population which such financial revolutions generate.

and thanks, Ken, for bringing a little common sense to our discussion!

Todays market news: The Fed panics with a massive bailout of American banks to be paid for by the American middle class.

On September 18, the Fed showed its panic and announced a larger than expected half percentage point cut in both the federal funds rate and in the discount rate, and this after having slashed its discount rate by a half point on August 17, in order to facilitate borrowing by America's largest banks and to facilitate the bailout of their affiliates and other operators, such as hedge-funds, caught in the sub-prime loans crisis.

Why did the Fed let the financial situation deteriorate to such an extent that an entire sector of the economy is being clobbered and its collapse is threatening the whole economy?

Mortgage debt as a percentage of disposable income in the U.S. is at the highest level it has been in 75 years, having reached 100 percent of income! At the same time consumer debt has risen to its highest level in history! All this makes the economy more threatened than at any time since the 1929 crash! Another consequence of this binge of easy money has been the frenzy of leveraged buy-outs and industrial concentration that we have observed over the last few years.

With the current drop of the dollar, Americans will be paying a lot more for everything, from fuel to food. This drop in the standard of living will accelerate the decline of the American middle class.

Already, the price of gold, the price of oil and the prices of other commodities are on their way up and can serve as inflation bellwethers. The behavior of long-term interest rates that incorporate inflation expectations is also a good indicator of future inflation. With the Fed printing money and increasing the money supply on a high scale as if it were dropping money from a helicopter, we are reminded of the nickname of Fed Chairman Ben "Helicopter" Bernanke -- who is carelessly encouraging greedy and out-of-control financial institutions to expand the disorder with successively disruptive financial crises.

NEW YORK (Reuters) -The dollar hit a record low against the euro for the third straight session on Monday amid fears that a deepening housing slump could rein in economic growth and trigger more cuts in U.S. interest rates. Investors are worried that weak economic reports will push the Federal Reserve to follow last week's half-percentage-point rate cut with further banking largess, accelerating the dollar's erosion compared to other currencies, particularly the euro.

Could the U.S. suffer a meltdown like Argentina's in 2000? What would that look like in this country?

Millenium, I couldn’t agree more with your statement that it is urgent that we cut down on the amount “of the energy use, waste, pollution, and shopping which we in the US engage in. if our health and security matter”.

90%?? I don’t find that realistic any time soon, but even 10, 20, 30% would make a huge difference – perhaps even enough to “turn the tide”??

We all have our own styles of communicating (for better or worse) but can you at all appreciate the idea that yours (seemingly always angry, accusatory, self-righteous) can at times negate any positive impact that you (with your unique and committed lifestyle) could easily generate. I think many people (especially the youth, most of whom are still malleable, energetic and eager enough to learn to do what’s right) would respond more readily to gentle guidance, empathy and everyday, common sense tips on how we can all change our collective destructive and unsustainable habits.

In my opinion, people like Suza, Leslie and the others (with their communication styles and ideas, for example, about publishing a “living green” column) or Kenley (and dare I say it – Dennis!) who get out and talk to people one on one about the side effects of the chain-store mentality or evan and all the rest who put their “time and money where their mouth is” about living peacefully together in society....they are the ones who can really make meaningful changes in a local community and, by extension, the world beyond. Getting a few simple, easy-to-implement ideas across like “Hey, you don’t HAVE to use plastic grocery bags, disposable diapers, or eat processed foods – there ARE alternatives” or “if you live within one (or two, or three…) miles from the grocery store, you can get one of those hampers on wheels and walk into town or ride your bike" or “Did you know that you can beautifully decorate your home and dress really well by shopping second hand – thrift stores, garage sales, antique stores” or “Baking Soda, Vinegar and Borax are all you need to clean your home” or “Letting your kids watch too much TV can lead to learning and behavior problems”…..etc. etc. etc. Yada, yada, yada. As much as these kinds of things seem like second nature to many here on the Ojai Post, there is a HUGE part of the population (in Ojai and the rest of the country) that have ZERO clue about how easy it is to "make a difference".

I would think that reaching this segment and changing even a small portion of their habits could do far more to help the planet than all of your “The sky is falling!!!” philosophy. It is easy to give people (again, especially the youth) reasons to be angry and fearful. It takes much more of a commitment to help lead them into successful, meaningful and sustainable adulthood.

Just my thoughts. What do you think?

P.S. Sorry for the ramble; I haven't had my first cup of coffee (one "bad habit" that I just can't seem to break!)

LTOR- beautiful, well-organized plea to Millenium to halt his rantings.

I fear it may well take another millenium before we see a change in our Millenium.

thanks Shane, for the status report. the fact that we can talk about it in a public forum means that we are finally conscious, in the US, of the bank racketeering ... and are ready for a major course/control/paradigm change, largest in perhaps a century.

and, of course, Anon, the meltdown will be complete, and wonderful, to allay LTOR's fears of a community and nature-oriented lifestyle.

the ninety percent changeover from waste-production and energy-abuse to practical garden, pedestrian, bicycle, barter and community economies will be accomplished without any work or devising on our parts -- as that is simply the measure of the wealth we have been extracting from the rest of the world since the close of World War II. It is the measure of the poverty we have inflicted on a world, which can no longer sustain us ... and has the last two years publicly, financially and politically stated that that era is over. Africa, Latin America, China ... indeed all of Asia ... will no longer be buying our dollars or bonds ... no longer underwriting our wars against all peoples.

what could be a greater enlightenment? herald of a global celebration of equality, the coming of 2012? a 'level' world, all cultures free to share together!

no more roar of the roadway, thunder of artillery ... rather the laughter of children in rural communities, rustling of the breeze in the trees, song of the brooks converging on the chorus of the River Bottom ...

"the meltdown will be complete, and wonderful"...
Ah, the Rapture...

"the meltdown will be complete, and wonderful, to allay LTOR's fears of a community and nature-oriented lifestyle"...

No fear there, Millenium, just a different understanding of human nature, group dynamics and the modern day realities of the world that we all have to face and adjust to. I’m sad to see that you seem to be positively gleeful (rapturous?) about a possible market crash. How you come to the conclusion that your prophesized utopia will be the logical and immediate end result is beyond me; I think it more likely that chaos, instability and misery will ensue. For a very, very long time.

LTOR said: We all have our own styles of communicating (for better or worse) but can you at all appreciate the idea that yours[Millenium] (seemingly always angry, accusatory, self-righteous) can at times negate any positive impact that you (with your unique and committed lifestyle) could easily generate.

You know, LTOR you sound awfully self righteous, accusatory and angry with this statement. Now, I know this isn't always the case with you but it is obvious to me that you are becoming what you accuse Mill. of being. I think you should stop wasting your energy and do something other than attacking the soldiers of peace.

Fair enough, SZ. I realize that sometimes my style of writing comes across just as you describe. I am always trying to be more “diplomatic” in my posts – so thank you for pointing out that I need to try harder…

I don’t happen to agree with you, however, about Millenium; I don’t see him (or Jock Doubleday, etc.) as “soldiers of peace”. (I, for one, find them to be reckless with information, unwilling to engage in dialogue, and non-committal when asked about the logical conclusions and end results of what they advocate). I have also been reading the Ojai Post long enough to have been witness to MT's “dismissal” of others and their hard work (remember his hostility to evan??) He spends his time denigrating just about everyone in our society, including the real "soldiers of peace" - the ones who bust their humps day in and day out protesting the war...

I feel compelled and will continue to comment on these threads because I personally know many young and impressionable people in Ojai (and elsewhere) who seem to be in love with the idea of glomming onto anything “counter-culture” or anti-government” just for the sake of being (what they see as) “revolutionary”. Without doing the necessary critical thinking or research for themselves. Without the requisite life experience to how the real world really works. You know - the quote about someone “knowing just enough to be dangerous”.

You seem to be very articulate – perhaps you could share your thoughts on what it is you think MT does to perpetuate a better, safer world for you and I (and the generations that follow).

LTOR-
I am with YOU, man.
I think you have a wonderfully articulate and diplomatic way to express what you think/feel and about this topic I am in total agreement with you and have posted similar thoughts.
In my HUMBLE opinion, Spaz is trying to bait and play you and I suggest you have NONE of it.

As stated above, the bankers put Woodrow Wilson into office -- until then he was president of Princeton University, a Political Science prof, in essence.

They knew they would have a continuing hold over Wilson because one of the bankers, I think it was Schiff, had obtained love letters that
Wilson had written to a Mrs.. Peck.

LTOR, thank you for your carefully considered response. Clearly, you've given MT a great deal of thought. I certainly cannot argue that MT has not been very diplomatic, has been dismissive and has also been ferociously unfair to Evan (in the past). I can see why you feel compelled to dig in to him. The reason I consider MT a soldier for peace is he sets himself apart when he backs up at least some of his rhetoric with his lifestyle choices. His having a garden that he lives off as well as leading a car free existence seals the deal for me. Thus, I may be guilty of glossing over his rough spots. Clearly, MT needs to study the art of diplomacy to get to the next level. LTOR, you are translucently giving me a lesson in artfulness with your respectful inflection. But, when you say that you speak out of concern for the youth, you lose me. How many under 20 year olds even know that the Ojai Post exists? And the ones that do, well, I supect they are more astute then you give them credit for.

SZ - Thank you for YOUR carefully considered response. This type of dialogue is so much more preferable and tolerable than some of the angry exchanges that I admit I engage in.

I agree with you about MT's lifestyle choices and I believe I have commented a few times on how remarkable and admirable I think it is. As a garden lover, I was thrilled with his initial Ojai Post offerings. But then, his posts started going down a different path and I responded in the best way I know how.

As for the youth, I'm not really qualified to say how many are reading the OP regularly. I know some are and wish more would because I think there is quite a bit of substance here and, as another person pointed out, it is infinitely more civil and highbrow than many of the other forums out there! I guess my concern is a general one; young people are on the computer and surfing the net all day and night long and information gets carelessly tossed around like never before (much of the time horribly taken out of context - especially on forums such as these). And to some people (young and old) who lack intellectual maturity and discipline, the ability to discern truth from innuendo, gossip or downright lies is not always as honed as most of us would like to think. Just reflect back on some of the less than intellectually stellar comments you have read and even commented on yourself.

I believe MT has a specific agenda, which is, of course, his right and which our current system of government, by the way, makes it easy for him to discuss and agitate for openly and freely. There has been much debate about Chavez and what he is doing in South America, and I think any civil discussion about differing political and economic systems is healthy and should be encouraged. I wish our kids were as politically savvy as their counterparts in Europe, for example. But I have seen the wanna-be "rebel" types glom onto this ideal that MT seems to be promoting (correct me if I'm wrong). Hey, if one believes Socialism is a better system - then great, discuss your reasoning, educate yourself further, become active in the cause, etc. One is free to do that in this country (the abuses of the current Administration aside). But many, I feel, get involved on a whim and have some sort of mis-guided Che-worship because they've read a few on-line exerpts of his diary and saw a movie where "he" looked cool on a motorcylce. I know I'm being very over-simplistic here but my point is that deep thought, research and reflection aren't always sought after traits among some people and it is these very types who seem to gravitate towards the Milleniums of our society.

So, I just think that pressing people to dig deeper and to try to get Millenium to be more open and forthright about just what it is he is trying to promulgate is not, in my eyes, entirely unreasonable. I may be entirely wrong in my assessments and would love to hear what you and others have to say about these issues.

Yikes!!! I'd better stop - I think I'm losing my ability to be concise!

Can we change the name of this thread to:

MILLENIUM: The man?, the myth?, the mystery?

Let's give Millenium his DOO!

Great dialogue you two!

I, for one, would like to know why so many of you have negative feelings about Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez?

Some on this page have even called him a dictator. I believe he was overwhelmingly elected, at least twice, by the citizens of his country.

Hi Colleen,

I am guilty of the "dictator" label above. I was speaking both in general terms about the consolidation of power (and how it can be abused both on the right as well as the left of the political spectrum) and specifically about what I have come to suspect about Chavez.

Media intimidation and censorship, illegal incarceration of opponents, unilateral rule-by-decree types of proclamations, strong-arm tactics and police brutality, claims of fraud during the recall vote a few years ago, redistribution of wealth (which, of course, is an inherent part of a Socialist system - but to my Venezuelean property-owning friends, it's not a welcome concept)...all of these alleged aspects of Chavez' rule give me cause to doubt that he is simply a benign, democratically endorsed head of state.

"Dictator" may be too strong a term, but I guess I am prone to over-exaggeration: I've been known to call Bush a Fascist and I guess TECHICALLY, that's not the case.

Obviously your perceptions of him are quite different. Your posts have been impressive in the past; I'd be curious to know your thoughts.

And yes, to answer your question on the other thread, I am a woman; that's funny and curious to me that you thought otherwise. But I think if all of us anonymous and psuedononymous posters were "outed" we'd all be in for a few suprises!!!

C.H.A.N.G.E. confronts Alan Greenspan !!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S5wfNnV6vTU

"Mr. Greenspan, Shouldn't we get rid of the Federal Reserve ... Wouldn't it be better than putting us into endless debt, Sir?"

there's no question. We pay interest to the Fed for every cent minted. Is why our struggle is for socialism - for us to own our stuff - all of us to own all our stuff, including care of Earth.

The question is why we're referred to an esoteric Voldemorti - belonging to the WallStreet advertising hysteria level of information - into which a couple of people have refrained from being grabbed ... Of course , these go along with all the religion-surfing losts who seek solace in such as the gobbledy gook constantly spewed here - ... whoa - If y'all could learn to talk straight .... unlearn the language of the fairy tales....

Re Hugo Chavez: I'd be very interested in visiting Venezuela and getting a sense of reality. Chavez was elected overwhelmingly and, like Castro in Cuba, Morales in Bolivia, etc., has far more support among his people than any of our recent presidents have had. I have no confidence in our media which wants to make him out to be some kind of ruthless, illegitimate dictator. I was in Venezuela under previous regimes, when it was billed as the richest country in South America, and had an expensive currency that was so completely unjustified on the ground. Caracas was a pit, a tiny gleaming smog ridden fancy high-rise downtown at the bottom of a giant bowl of shanties that were dangerous to visit. I have never been hassled or experienced police as corrupt as in that Venezuela. Other than the university town of Merida, where students rioted weekly with stones and molotovs and were chased through the streets by teargas-shooting police, nearly every town I visited - even the oil peninsula town whose name I now forget - was a hopeless pit of have nots, suffering under a very few, very wealthy haves. Venezuela when I visited was an example of crony capitalism gone horribly wrong, but given a facade of democracy and legitimacy by our media and government. Colombia, suffering a horrible reputation at the time, was a beacon in comparison.

Several years later, "someone I know" had the chance to visit Cuba, which as we know is billed as a horrible dictatorship of suffering, downtrodden people living in fear and oppression, yearning only to leave. What a crock! I doubt there is another country so full of joy and light hearts, music and dancing in the streets. There were no homeless people in Cuba; people worked an average 6 hours a day, four days a week; lobster and good ron was plentiful, sure the choices were not as varied as here but what was there was good and affordable for most people in sufficient quantities to enjoy as one might wish; everyone has medical care, if you want a vacation you sign up, take the time and go. All expenses paid. No crime in the streets, probably the safest country in all Latin America. Literacy higher than the U.S., more artists, more university educated as percentage of population. Castro would go speak at rallies, hundreds of thousands turn out in the giant Revolution Square. The country itself is a cultural treasure, and beautiful and well-preserved - out in the country as well as in the city. (Funny but, at least in the case of Cuba, when you don't need to produce enough excess to fatten a billionaire or two and you put a little thought into it, people as a whole can work less, take less, live better, and leave far less impact. Does Cuba-style socialism also point the way to sustainability and green living?)

Sure, not everyone was happy - those who got money from relatives abroad and read the constant propaganda letters had some pretty silly fantasies of what it would be like if they came here. But even they had something precious few will ever have here - time, to spend with family, to play dominoes, to swim in the sea, to write, to paint, to sculpt, to play music, sing and dance. In Cuba, at least from appearances, not a few but the vast majority of people have the time and means to enjoy those things.

I know, I know, someone will say, if its so great, why not move there?

Alas, not so easy. But I can tell you that my neighbor at the time, after a two week visit, did sell all his crap and move. Still there I believe. So it may be possible.

Anyway, my point is only that experience teaches that the horrible demons painted by the likes of George W. Bush and our media don't often turn out that way.

How about Ahmaniajabad (or however it is spelled)? The propaganda war is so intense, it must be B.S. What is the real Iran like today? I wonder.

Foco-
I am not sure of the reliability of this statistic, but I did recently hear that 1/3 of all Cubans have left the country since Castro took control. The current population of Cuba is around 11 Million. There are estimated to be 1-2 Million Cuban exiles in USA. The economy of Cuba fell into freefall after the Soviet subsidies ended and the only thing keeping the island afloat currently is tourism. Do you really think the majority of Cubans have the means to take a vacation, with an annual average yearly income of $3000?

You wonder what the real Iran is like today?
Well there are probably a lot of really cool younger people who would love to come to America or Europe. The economy sucks, but the military budget keeps increasing. And if you ever get there be careful about kissing anyone in public.

Foco, your post was fascinating!

LTOR said: As for the youth, I'm not really qualified to say how many are reading the OP regularly.

Neither am I qualified to say how many sub 20 year olds read the Ojai Post but I did take an informal poll a few weeks ago. I asked around 20 sub 20s and only one had even heard of the Ojai Post. None had ever read it. My position is this: I think your ability to refine and alter the tone of Millenium's discourse will greatly improve when your motivation for doing so is based in a more substantial reality instead of a low potential one. Your critique of MT is valid and will become more balanced and more powerful and less urgent when you have the aplomb to speak only for your self without having to use the elusive youth as your rallying point.

Anyway, your proven abilty to apportion, introspect and peruse will have a far greater impact than trying to make a stubborn horse drink the water. He needs to see how clear and refreshed others become after drinking from the cool stream of demureness. BTW, it may be a good time to acknowledge that MT has become much more affable in the last month or so.

for whatever it's worth, i've been to the movies twice with Millennium and Megumi in the past couple of months, and enjoyed myself greatly both times. there are levels on which he and i can connect, and we seem to be exploring those to some degree. maybe that's part of what Peace looks like.

look for a review of "Ten Canoes" coming from one of us soon.

What wonderful comments to wake up to. THIS (to me anyway) is real dialogue on some very important topics, dialogue that I wish the average American would start to engage in...

SZ, points very well taken!

Foco, wonderful commentary. Although, I don't know if I agree that Cuba is as rosy as you paint it, I would have to agree that something seems to be working there, and Castro isn't the big bad wolf that "we" paint him to be. A while back, while helping "a friend" prepare for a trip there, I did quite a bit of reading. ("The friend" went to Peru, instead but the research was still fascinating. "Trading with the Enemy" is one book that comes to mind. And the many documentaries, like Buena Vista Social Club, that have come out of there have been illuminating. ) To me, a truly fascinating country. I think an adventurous American traveler might want to think about visiting before Castro dies and the floodgates into the country fly open and unfettered tourism changes it for good.

Chavez? Time will tell how the country will fare under his rule. I hear more and more that he isn't living up to certain campaign themes and promises, "the natives are getting restless" and his response is to clamp down more and more on civil rights and opposition.

My personal views are that, like Anonymous said above, socialism (in theory) is a noble and just way to try to organize a group of people. But, in the long run, it just doesn't work. Human beings are (either by nature or by the influence of their social constraints and parameters) greedy, covetous, and competitive. Conflict and corruption will always arise. And the role of government in this system doesn't seem to end up any "prettier" than our own; I would argue that it becomes much more authoritative and totalitarian and under very little scrutiny and recourse for improvement and correction. Have we not seen that play out time and time again with these types of "experiments"? And I just can't understand how anyone would think that this type of social arrangement could or would ever be imported to this country. America is, by far, unfortunately the greediest, most covetous and most competitive nation on earth. We are a nation of property owners (and guns!), the majority of whom have absolutely no interest in this form of government (otherwise the Commune movement of the 60's and 70's would have taken off like wildfire, wouldn't it?) I'm genuinely interested in how those that advocate a Socialist system think that would all play out here...

And Iran...what a tragedy waiting to happen if this administration or Europe decide to "take action". The average American assumes the worst about many of these Middle Eastern countries and rarely gets accurate information about many of the wonderful, peaceful, Western-loving citizens within. (Those who've been in Ojai since the late 70’s will remember that there were many Iranian students at some of our private schools) I am reading a book right now - "Neither East Nor West: A Woman's Journey Through the Islamic Republic of Iran" by Christiane Bird. And I recently finished "The Caliph's House" by Tahir Shah, about an English couple and their small children who went to live in Morocco for a year. Now, granted, these are travel books, not scholarly tomes, but I recommend them (and those like them) because they are easy to read. I think everyone (especially anybody who still supports the current war) should go out and search for material about these places that our press is so adept at demonizing. A change of perception is necessary if our goal is to live peacefully within the world arena.

Again, I'm rambling... Sorry!

Foco-

I'm surprised you don't add North Korea to your itinerary.
Now that Kim Jong-il is 1 cool cat in his platform shoes and khaki jumpsuit.
If your looking to lose some weight I hear food is pretty scarce there.

Foco-

I'm surprised you don't add North Korea to your itinerary.
Now that Kim Jong-il is 1 cool cat in his platform shoes and khaki jumpsuit.
If your looking to lose some weight I hear food is pretty scarce there.

Grammar patrol:

your = you're

thank you Virginia!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S5wfNnV6vTU

re: "Mr. Greenspand ... you are way out of touch with the needs of the middle class and the working families ... you see your major function and position as representing the very wealthy and large corporations ... the country clubs and the cocktail parties are not real America!"

and Foco, you bless our Valley of the Goddess Moon, in turning off the nonsense Newspeak voices concerning Iran and Cuba and Venezuela ... you can always tell a corporate gangster or one of their cows or clones, as they are only able to regurgitate conversations and opinions programmed into them by the media. no honest or real dialog about the world and culture as a whole, the hundreds of millions of people engaged in the contemporary dialog in the world re: the announcements of all the wild, native, aboriginal, indigenous peoples of the collapse of Mother Earth; the networks of women and activists and caring people to end the depredations/victimization of women; indeed the global celebration louder than any of the American news-spew on the returning of the global sacred and the global feminine.

so the plotting gangsters, and their brainless bullies, only get their jollies when they are violating the Cubas, the Venezuelas, and any peoples and communities doing good in the world ... standing up to the corporate death machine.

viz. Mayanmar, formerly the slave state of British Burma, that military regime has successfully kept the Corporate State at bay for five (six?) decades. A terrible price to pay in human suffering? History will be the judge -- yet the sickness in the Jade mines will never compare to the unbelievable medical and automotive Horror in the United States ... at the hand of Company Voldemorti the corporate banking state.

and Myanmar, alone on the planet, has preserved 90 percent of its wildlife and rainforests -- and so too the Buddhist temples and lifestyles, as sacred to them or more so than any Christianity or Judaism, Islam or Hinduism.

no honest individual in the world wants democracy -- totalitarian ignorance and servitude to the media and military machine -- rather they want direct democracy, distributed democracy, volunteerism, you name it wherein ethics is the guide, a life in harmony with nature (Heavenly Accord as it is recognized in Taoism), and individual and family and community self-determinism.

this is the secret of today's global communion of mind, the song WE are singing today, that LOVE is respect, and the ONLY time we are speaking ethically -- caringly, truly -- is when we are speaking wholly and globally, finding our own words and actions to visualize and acknowledge and protect the diversity.

that is what the words and practices of refinement, cultivation, polish, gentility (aye, enlightenment) truly mean, reflect ...

the light of our divine rainbow, this we ...

illumination provided by me, and thee.

Mille-

I suggest you be officially designated as Ojai's Minister of Propaganda.

Your support of the tyrannical military junta in Myanamar may be a new low in obfuscation.

Mille- I beg thee, tend the garden, have a nourishing meal, allay the madness...

I looked up the word "affable" in the dictionary...

That (the above) ain't it!

Anonymous 9:55 - Nice to know you've begun using a dictionary. It is never too late to begin to educate one self. You may want to find a book about writing legible sentences as well.

I feel it's time for me to play "ring around the Post." I hate to lose connection with this group of marvelous mavericks. I've been playing elsewhere but somehow always come back to this virtual home. Tomorrow I'm heading by train to Wisconsin with my son; haven't been back to that home for nine years nor has he; back to the future we go where my people lived simpler lives. I'm going to a cranberry marsh/farm of 2500+ acres of woods, grassland, river, lake, marsh where I lived for eight years. Why in the hell did I leave? I was seduced by "Hotel California." Should I start another paragraph here? Hell, no. I want to irritate Suza. I'll run it all together just for her. I saw her Sunday at the other Dennis' pre-presidential visit. Suza and I are on good terms, sort of sparring partners. I can't compete with her skills or experience so I won't even try. We both love Dennis. He's a light in the darkness. Literally. His wife is an angel. I spoke to her for some time. They are true to a fault and therefore I fear for them. When I tried to inject some realpolitik into the conversation, she said twice: "Don't even go there." So I didn't, not with her anyway. But for myself, I am compelled to go into the darkness. I have an attraction for "againstness." In fact, I got kicked out of the new age church I belonged to because I was against what they were doing, and what was their reason for ejecting me? I committed the sin of "againstness." Anyway, at the 6.8 million dollar McMansion of Glen Muse, Dennis gave the most beautiful speech I will ever hear from one of his kind. It was worth the $30 I contributed that night and the $25 in the afternoon. In a dark wood paneled room, beautifully appointed, fireplace softly burning, Dennis spoke of "heart" a half a dozen times, love and fire yoga, while beaming with love for his wife. They are running on the "fuel of love" (his words). I could have shook his hand but didn't. Why? My motives were not pure, and my evil disposition may have rubbed off on him. Then I would have bragged: "I shook the hand of a presidential candidate." I did buy his T shirt, though, and will wear it for my relatives. I wonder if my brother in law still likes Bush? I agree with Dennis and his wife, Elizabeth, in virtually everything they stand for. They would even get rid of the Federal Reserve. That's courageous because it got JFK and many others killed. I was trying to use "indirections to find directions out" with Elizabeth but she stopped me with "don't even go there." She may be very smart, fearful, calculating or naive. Who knows? I asked her if Dennis would run as an independent if he fails to get the Democratic nomination but again I was stonewalled with "don't even go there." Maybe Elizabeth has read too much Shakespeare (she is English) or has a fondness for Elizabeth I. So far Dennis is no threat to the system but that could change if he continues the momemtum he's got going. Pray. I would have liked to ask Dennis whether he believed 911 was an inside job but I didn't want to put him between a rock and hard place. I'm quite sure "don't even think of going there" would be his answer since he and Elizabeth are on the same frequency. We students of the Millenium, of course, are not afraid to "go there," into that heart of darkness. I love 911 just for that reason: it's the litmus test of intelligence and integrity. The Demofrats fail the test miserably which is why I wonder why Dennis and Elizabeth don't go independent. Dennis reportedly blew that question off by saying the fatocrats need education. With regard to the used car demos, I think of the bible's "I wish you were hot or cold but because you are lukewarm, I vomit you out of my mouth." In associating so closely with the Democrits, Dennis is setting himself up for a fall. Like I said, he and Elizabeth are pure to a fault. Well, take it with a ton of salt because I am known to have found fault with an angel. I can't stomach the Repugnacrats; maybe that's why I could not shake Dennis' hand; too much demoncrat blood there by association. Out damn spot! What to do? Well, I know what I've done. I've started my own party. You may have heard of it: the Red Brown and Blue Party with supports The Love Government. It's still at the conceptual stage, you know, the afterglow after the orgasm when millions of sperm wind their way through the love tunnel toward mother egg. I hope one of them makes it so the Party can begin. BTW, did you know that one of the meanings of "party" is to "make love." The RBB Party is out to make love, not money or war, the Twiddledeedee and Twiddledeedum bosses. Anyway, here's to Brother MT for conjuring up this discussion with his magic wand pen. MT is obscure but so is Harry. It's the nature of magic. Harry and MT both deal with the dark powers and as far as I'm concerned, that is where the juice is. Speaking of darkness, I bought more Euros because Euroland is where Transylvania and BIS (Bullshit In Spades) is located; if the rest of the world sinks, they've got their Euro Ark ready with the gold stowed in the hold. Many think the deluge is coming; and it's not the euroreich patriarchs but the women and children who will go down with the non-ark ships. That's a crappy attitude but I'm an old 67 year old patriarch myself so I think I can tell which way the wind is blowing. I'm not nearly so pure as MT or the other Dennis. I've worked in psychiatric nursing and catholicism most of my careers and I fear I've picked up their schizophrenia, half angel and half devil. I wish I had something useful to say but I don't. I think I'm prepared for the flood. Ojai is on high ground and has plenty of water underground. I can survive on rice and beans and few gatherings. I don't need refrigeration and I don't need heat except for cooking. I have a few friends, and an old motorhome if I have to rehit the streets. But still I worry if worse comes to worse, especially for my son. He's fourteen and facing a hell of world. The good news is that there is no hell without heaven. Well, I have to get ready for that midnight special to Chicago. Thanks to the internet, I'll keep tuned in from the heartland. Potterville is not half so entertaining as Ojaitown Politoville.

I love your comments, Millenium. We need to spread the word and join together. We are tired of being the same slaves; are tired of people who is trying to treat us without dignity; we are tired of receiving conditioned help but finally the price is really high. I admire Venezuela, Cuba and Bolivia because they have the 'character' to stop being manipulated and to say what they really believe to these people who believe they are the owners of the world. They don't respect each country rights, they want to interfere on anything what is happening in their neighborhood but forget what is happening in their own houses.
We, the whole countries of the world are NOT allowed to interfere in their projects, destructive programs, asking to stop this stupid war. Seems like the rest of the world has NO right to be heard. But we, people from the 'third world' as they call us, need to put our head down (like respecting the big boss commands).
They need to stop all this battle against migration because they are forgetting that they are even the result of this migration. When people from Europe came to America, indigenous native american people owned these lands and they came and put their flags for the 'discovering' of their land. Which lands? - This is what I call robbery to the needed ones, to the ones who were here first. They mixed with these people who lived here and there were migrants as well and who took them away? - Don't you think that they are inmigrants also?
Thave now the power to kick away people who are working, doing the things that they dislike doing. These people are not even receiving any Security help, but they are paying their taxes.
I don't think that when God created this planet he said: We will put borders and you will have the power to kill people as you wish, destroy Mother Earth, take her blood away through petroleum, contaminate her veins with all your industries and factories so you get rich and do not share with others. God, gave to all human beings and animals the same rights and no one is superior than the other. He didn't create human beings to take advantage of each other. This people need to learn to respect other countries and their cultures and to let us live our own lives and make our own decisions. Nobody should be forced to go to stupid wars and if they are forcing, why their own children are not in the war? - Are we all treated in the same way or nobody will be forced to do what they don't want to do! - Just let me tell you that the first ones who are in the war lines are latin american and afro american people because they are used like bait in the first lines. Why they waited till the last moment to help people from New Orleans in the last hurricane they got? - Why are they pushing people to continue with this 'created war' ? that only benefit some arm industries because they need the money? - Why they didn't care when knowing on time that something was going to happen on the 9/11? - There are so many questions and we, all people are paying their salaries through our taxes, so, in other words: They are our employees but they don't do what we want! - We are doing and accepting what they want and they manipulate us like puppets in a string.
When is this going to end?
Rosa Maria

Anonymous 12:42: I know its hard to imagine, but in Cuba, the currency-exchange value of your "earnings" does not dictate what you can do with your life. Cubans today do indeed still have the ability to go on vacation, all expenses paid, to beautiful beach resorts, to cabins in the sierra. Before the Soviet and Yugoslav collapses, they could sign up and go spend a week on the coast of Montenegro or the Black Sea. They could do this whether their day job was harvesting cane or performing brain surgery; you might meet both side by side at a beach or poolside.

You are right that they are making do with far less today as a result of the Soviet collapse and loss of their major trading partner, which has intensified the effect of the U.S. embargo. But visitors report that the basics I mentioned are all still true.

Is it paradise? Is anywhere perfect? The vast majority of people in Cuba today remain undoubtedly better off than the vast majority of people in most other Latin American countries. If we did not have the embargo, who knows how much better off still they might be. And, embargo or no, Cubans enjoy many things that we do not have here, despite our riches.

As far as exiles, I think LTOR is right to a point: for