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posted by evan austin

HOORAY FOR THE COUNTER-RECRUITMENT EFFORTS locally!! We need to get out of any foreign war and start protecting OUR OWN BORDERS for a change. This war was started, I feel, by the inside job of our own intelligence agencies creating the big incident of 911 to facillitate our entry into this war for the increased power and profits of Bushs' big money backers (Halliburton oil, etc.). President Roosevelt pulled off a similar atrocity in 1941 when he was able to deliberately provoke and facilitate the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor to get us into the world war "for the redistribution of the world" which we had no reason to be in but which made Roosevelt a virtual dictator. See: www.JBS.org (search: pearl harbor)or read the books "Infamy" by John Toland (pulitzer prize winning historian) and "Day of Deceit" by Robert Stinnett (probably at local librarys). 911, like Pearl Harbor, is, I feel, another 'big incident' created by our own government to stampede us into another war for the big money boys who care nothing for human life or suffering. We must also remember that this war, like all our wars since 1941, is ILLEGAL as it was disgracefully never constitutionally declaired by congress. We have to get out of this quagmire, stop the decades of treason by our presidents and congress, and save our children. Keep up the good work.--Ed Nemechek 760-246-8059.

I certainly don't mind activists exercising their consitutional right to express themselves, and I actually do respect your opinion and dedication. But you are short-sighted and mean.

A career in the military is an highly honorable and absolutely necessary occupation. Like it or not, the world has always and will always be ruled by the aggressive use of force. The United States of America has used its military force most judiciously over the course of history. The U.S. DOES hold the moral high ground over any world or regional power in history.

It is called American Exceptionalism, and is the result of providing freedom of speech (among other things) to people like you. And backing it up with patriot's blood. No other country has had this level of opportunity and freedom, and it comes at a price.

You don't like the war in Iraq? Nobody likes war, but this is part of the War On Terror whether you agree or not. And if the Wahabi radicals ever show up in Ojai, they will go after the easy to kill first. You know who you are.

Because you say it is so, that this is a war on terrorism, regardless if I believe it not to be, does not make it so.

I don't buy into Ed's concept of how this started nor, do I believe the current war at all fits the precepts of our more honourable times of world leadership. Indeed quite the opposite. American Exceptionalism as you call it, define it, is not exceptional, not only American. Our leaders traded in the moral high ground with the current administration. Freedom of speech has been squelched all over the spectrum of debate, from Valerie Plame's outing to hurt her and her husband for her husband sound explanation of the ruse by bush et alia concerning Iraq and the nuclear weapons, to the illegal detention of two at a bush function for wearing T-shirts with stop bush logos. Though the legal fight with Valerie may continue, the two illegally arrested and held prisoner have won 80 thousand dollars for Bush's crime against them.

Concerning the argument that it is necessary to fight the terroist/Whahabist there to avoid the fight here loses all credibility when all the leaders that promote this imperative don't have there bloodones there to make the sacrifice. With our president, former Cocaine user who was AWOL, never seen a day military action along with a V.P. who dodged the draft and all those that surround them that never served, define American Deceptionism(if I may).

Who cares about the borders, they are making the North American Union, and they are opening up the Canadian and Mexican borders in about 3-5 years, why do you think Bush could give a F about border security. Thats why he was in Canada with Mexican president.

What drivel! American Exceptionalism, are you kidding! I urge you to read your history a little more closely. US foreign policy has been broken for many years. This latest adventure, moronically dubbed the GWOT (Global War On Terror)--as if you can hold a war against an abstract concept or a tactic, is just one more in a long line of foreign policy blunders. The amount of lives, energy, money and time that this country has wasted since the Civil War on a foreign policy that does nothing but prop up corporate business interests is truly staggering. Christ, we'd have been able to feed the whole world, stop using fossil fuels, ensure that everyone on Earth had sufficient drinking water, educate all of our citizens through college and build condos on Mars by now is we didn't keep squandering our blood and treasure on these supposedly MORAL mass killings, all in the name of "freedom"(READ money).

There are no wahabists in Iraq! Iraq is majority Shi'a, Wahabism is a Sunni sect that originated in Saudi Arabia. That said, the nonsense Republican talking point that claims "we have to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here," is actually partially true. It's just the "here" they have wrong. The "here" they are referring to is really the home of the largest oil reserve on Earth and our number one "ally" in the gulf--Saudi Arabia. That's right, as usual we are propping up a totally undemocratic regime in Saudi Arabia. A monarchy of all things! The number one threat to this corrupt regime is its' own populace. Extremist Sunni Wahabism is a reaction to the House of Saud. So, rather than allowing these radicals threaten out oil supply, we've seen fit to distract them from their true enemy. Hence, the "we have to fight them there(Iraq) so we don't have to fight them here(Saudi Arabia)" logic. The whole thing is so unbelievably short sighted. If we "hold the moral high ground" as you claim, why do we always seem to prop anti-democratic regimes who always seem to oppress and kill their own people. The list is long and old and includes such luminaries as Adolf Hitler(Germany-funded by many U.S. corporations before and during WWII), Gen. Francisco Franco(Spain), Gen. Agusto Pinochet(Chile), Pol Pot(Cambodia), Gen. Manuel Noriega(Panama-until he threatened to expose Bush Sr.'s and the CIA's cocaine connections), Mobutu Sese Seko(Zaire), Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi(Iran), Jean Claude Duvalier(Haiti), P.W. Botha(South Africa), Fulgencio Batista(Cuba), Ferdinand Marcos(Philippines), Anastasio Somoza Sr. and Jr.(Nicaragua), Gen. Suharto(Indonesia) and of course Saddam Hussein(Iraq). This list is in no particular order and by no means complete. Why do we prop up these anti-democratic murders? Well, it must be for Freedom(Money). Oh and wake me when the Wahabists get here.

WE HAVE TO STOP THE NORTH AMERICAN UNION AND THE SPP or any of the phony "Free Trade Agreements" that amount to treaties, thick as phone books, abolishing our constitution, borders, independence, and heritage that our ancestors fought and died for (See: www. STOPTHEFTAA.org) and read the books I mentioned in my posting above. This is how we must defend our country instead of continually being SUCKERED into one phony no-win ILLEGAL foreign war after another! The people plotting the destruction of our great nation for DECADES are in Washington D.C. starting with the president on down, not in some rat-hole tin-pot dictatorship on the other side of the world that in reality can't fight its' way out of a wet paper bag. We have obvously lost the wars since 1941 because of the TREASON of our own leaders and we must stop this through Congress. Call your congressmen and senators to stop the North American Union and the SPP., and GET OUT OF IRAQ. -Ed Nemechek-760-246-8059.

while i recognize that i exert no control whatsoever about how this thread proceeds, i simply want to reconnect to the original topic here: that of military recruitment on school campuses.

i'm frankly ill with the "It is called American Exceptionalism, and is the result of providing freedom of speech (among other things) to people like you. And backing it up with patriot's blood. No other country has had this level of opportunity and freedom, and it comes at a price." argument, which seems to imply that we should not use our freedoms to speak out against the institutions that bought them for us. if we didnt use them, wouldnt they have been purchased in vain? freedom would be free if we didn't keep trying to buy and sell it.

our schools are [supposed to be] places of education, where our bright young minds are sent to learn the most current facts, the most progressive social research, the skills that will make them productive workers (there's a whole thread by itself) and conscious Citizens. in my mind, militarism doesnt fit anywhere in that. sure, the military can teach responsibility and discipline and blah blah blah, BUT YOU ALSO MIGHT KILL OR BE KILLED. aren't there other, smarter ways to learn those critical skills WITHOUT MURDER? i keep coming back to the lead paint analogy: if my goal is to paint my house, and i have lead paint and latex paint, WHY in the world would i ever choose the lead paint?

bah, i'm actually quite tired of this. "the world...will always be ruled by the aggressive use of force"..."The U.S. DOES hold the moral high ground over any world or regional power in history."
how very Neanderthal...SERIOUSLY. way to speak up for my world and demand something better for me than was handed to you.

the point is that Nordhoff High School cares enough about our children to take appropriate and legal steps to limit the amount of reptilian propaganda that's shoved at them to convince them that they WANT to be cannon fodder. whether we're at war or not, whether said war is "illegal" or not, whether 9/11 was an inside job or not, the militaristic mentality does not belong in schools because it is the opposite of everything their educators and parents are teaching them about cooperation, citizenship, respect...these things have no borders. we either ALL have it, or none of us really do.

Mr. Urbanek brought to mind this from an earlier thread:

Speaking of unthinking right wing canards and refrains: Anyone else tired of this constant admonition from the right wing that we somehow should "thank our troops" "thank the vets" for our ability to speak out and voice an opinion on the crimes going on? As if the troops are responsible for our rights.

Invariably this canard is hoisted to respond to and dismiss an airing of some true and indisputable facts regarding the incompetence, corruption, hypocrisy or crimes of this administration. The right wing can't deal with reality and actually answer the arguments or defend their indefensible heroes. So they trot it out: "I hope so-and-so thanks the troops for being able to say that." "I'm proud to have fought for so-and-sos right to say that." And then they pat themselves on the back for their "tolerance."

Hello? If they mean Revolutionary War troops, well OK. But wars of aggression like Iraq, Panama, Granada, Vietnam, Korea, even WWII, had nothing to do with protecting our civil liberties. Give me a break. It is just the opposite - wars of aggression have invariably diminished our rights.

What's especially offensive is when you hear it from one of these vets, or the parent of a soldier. One never wants to pop someone's bubble to harshly, but as dear as it may be to them to believe they fought for some noble cause, I'm sorry: Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Iraq were not noble. Even WWII loses some nobility when you consider the inexcusable stain on our nation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. WWI noble? Please. The Spanish-American War? The War on Mexico?

As a member of the reality-based community, let me suggest to these proud vets that war by and large is not an endeavor to be proud of. Sorry to burst the bubble.

Instead, let me suggest to the right wing: Next time you want to celebrate the defense of our rights, put the credit where it belongs. How about the Supreme Court, back in its better days? The ACLU? The leaders of the civil rights movement? And all the others you people dismiss as the "left". Its them - not your precious troops - who have defended your right to speak your mind, such as it is.

And while we wait in vain for members of the right wing to acknowledge the real heroes responsible for their rights, let me ask: Can anyone offer a theory as to exactly how it is that a supporter of the Iraq war, or God forbid, a soldier in it, can convince themselves that they are "defending freedom"?

Posted by: Support the Troops | August 1, 2007 02:03 PM

excellent re-sharing, Anonymous 2:56.

the recruiter culture is not - and many recent headlines have exposed this a little - very noble at all. my brother recently joined the Marine Reserves. wanna know how his recruiters impressed him? by driving really fast, talking their ways out of tickets with their "buddies" in the CHP, and showing a casual disregard for the laws of the road by backing up on the freeway to get the onramp they'd missed. what action heroes! what noble armed representatives of my freedoms!

and my little brother is too starry eyed to see how flagrant disregard for simple rules here at home does not bode well for the ability to enforce or follow laws abroad. they know all too well that they're seldom going to win any cannon-fodder-converts by preaching high-order ideologies like Democracy or Freedom or Morality to 16-year-olds who are just starting to think about driving and what boobies look like. they bastardize these terms and then pay cheap lip service to them while they sell a fake action-hero lifestyle where the toys are shiny and the rules don't apply. and what parent is going to be caught not supporting their child's aspirations? so they invent the "god says this is what you're supposed to do" mythology so they can all sleep at night.

it's hot. i'm tired. i wanna cry.

Response to spk: When you speak of foreign policy "blunders" I would assert that these are not blunders at all but deliberate brilliant TREASON against our republic by our own presidents, leaders and public officials who have been getting away with it for decades and we must put a stop to it. Congress is the answer. Ed Nemechek-760-246-8059.

I have been lurking this site for quite some time, and I am well aware that opposition is not welcome. I was respectful of opposing opinion, and I realize that scares most of you.

There is a huge difference between the way the world is, and the way you would like it to be. I don't say you are stupid. I say you must take tiny steps. And you will still ultimately be disappointed.

Human nature, sadly, is what it is. Hasn't changed in recorded time. You think that with your puny 90 years of life expectancy is going to make a difference? If it makes you feel better, OK.

I am the proud father of four Nordhoff graduates. Mr. Musick is a nice man. But the cooperation with left wing kooks is a theorectially "politically correct" reaction in a town like Ojai. Many parents do not approve of such drivel. I have fed my children the "opposing" view of our country and history. I won't say I have beaten the liberal education regime - after all, liberalism is entrenched in education K-Graduate School. But once they have jobs, and see their paychecks, they are that much closer to believing that conservatism is the way they have been taught to live their lives.

And the end result is that they will appreciate the sacrifices of our military. My son-in law is a Marine. You are lucky to have him in the community. Semper Fi!

Here is what the "sovereign" nation of Iran has been up to lately.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=477088&in_page_id=1770

What a wonderful country that must be to live in.

I can assure you that I am not afraid of your opposing opinions. I only wish that you had seen fit to back them up with even an ounce of fact. You haven't engaged even one of the facts that have been presented here to refute your blind faith in our foreign policy. Instead, you''ve thrown up the old hack-kneed "liberals have infiltrated the education system" talking point and then the buzz phrase "politically correct". At least in the usage of that phrase you seem to recognize that the majority of citizens in this country are against Mr. Bush's war. Your comment about paychecks is another common talking point that seems to pose the idea that liberals don't work for a living. An insult, not worth responding to. Your assertion that we don't know how the world really is is another insult. So often "conservatives" and republicans come on here and make these kinds of "talking-point" arguments with zero facts. Then they start whining about how people respond to them and want to argue their incorrect, often ignorant points. If you are going to make these kinds of assertions, be prepared to back them up if you are on this blog. Simple proclamations from on high with no facts simply will not do.

Michael Urbanek,
Obviously, you are the one who is scared. You support violence against innocent men, women and children. Violence is a brain stem activity. There is a huge difference between your perception of the world and the actual reality of it. 'I don't say you are stupid'. You are perceiving the world thru the screen of your brain stem - fight or flight. This interferes with the full spectrum of experience that you blindly pass thru with only your inner dialogue visible. Anything that does not fit into your limited belief system is classified as 'dumb', 'ignorant', 'left' etc allowing you to preserve your low status quo and avoid a personal existential crisis.

You are standing on the side of the road of life with your eyes closed, repeating the same words like a robot. You refuse to even take 'tiny steps'. And you will ultimately be disappointed with your wasting away your ability to grow, think and contribute to a healthy society. You appear to resonate with the organized crime simpletons who view life, mankind and the earth itself with a cynical and jaded gaze. It doesn't make you feel better.

Michael, the fact that you're participating at all and that you're calm and level-headed is very appealing and non-threatening to me. i think it is a sad (though accurate) commentary that "opposition is not welcome".

of COURSE there's a huge difference between how the world is and how we'd like it to be. i completely agree with you that we must take tiny steps...being disappointed 90 years later, however, is largely a choice we each get to make. i try to impress upon would-be world-changers that the changes most valuable, most in need of making, will likely if not certainly take longer than their lifetimes. does that make them not worth doing? on the contrary, perhaps that determines what things are worth doing! Did Dr. King complete his dream? No. Does that mean it's no longer worth pursuing? NO! Women still make cents on every man's dollar. Oh well, we tried our best? NO!

is the "drivel" you refer to that schools are places of learning and not a place for the shiny, super-funded toy company that is the U.S. Military to teach our kids the hypocrisy that although we mustn't have violence in our schools and neighborhoods, there are other places where we must create violence and destroy other humans? what are we after, ultimately and collectively? is it simply to accept "human nature" and carefully, religiously, hungrily maintain the status quo? or is it to better ourselves and our world...to be MORE accepting, MORE generous, MORE fair, MORE compassionate? to FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY learn that violence NEVER has been the solution to violence...that "The reason we have a military is to be able to fight and win wars." (Dick Cheney, Vice Presidential Debate, October 5, 2000)?

yes, we're lucky to have your son-in-law HERE, in our COMMUNITY. i will NOT feel lucky if he chooses to go to someone else's home and kill in my name. i give no authorization for that, to him nor to my brother.

Mr Urbanek:

I guess I'm not sure why military recruiters should get special privileges and access to our kids at schools?

What's wrong with military recruiters playing by the same rules as college admissions people?

What's wrong with parents who would like to encourage their kids to go to college over the military?

What's wrong with parents and kids who do not want to go in the military opting out of being contacted by military recruiters?

Did your son serve in Iraq? Could he perhaps provide some idea from being on the ground as to what it is we might accomplish there? Why are we there? Honestly, I would appreciate some perspective from someone who has actually been there, and is not parroting the obvious nonsense we get from the Administration. What is the mission? If someone could define that, we all might be able to have a better converation about the best ways to accomplish it.

If Michael has his way. Click this link for a google movie. This one is for you Michael Urbanek. Consider it a gift from the ghost of Christmas future. Enjoy.

Evan,
Are you so emotional about this subject because you have a conflict with a younger sibling ?

Wow Brian, I suppose one can rationalize the appropriateness of such a question, so I'll take liberty as well. I'll start by Reverse Thinking this question. ?Is Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rove, Scooter, Lap Dog Powell, and all the republicans that support this war, do so, for their not having a conflict concerning a Bloodone in harmsway? Brian, do you have Bloodones in the Iraq? If so, do you support this war, even if costs their lives.

Exposing our kids who are still developing critical thinking skills need input by those who care for them. If we don't step in when we see need, we become the problem that we complain about when we say what has happened to our kids.

Would you rather have recruiters come in and completely manipulate our kid into joining the military, so they can meet their quotas. If someone wants to make a career out of the military, fine. But let these young minds know as much of the truth about what it means so they can make a judicious decision that will affect many lives for years to come.

Well said!

This thread brings up memories from my own recruitment experiences at Nordhoff some 20 years ago. Back then, the administration informed us that the ASVAB was every bit as important and necessary to take as the SAT, especially if you were planning on attending college. What they didn't tell us was that this exam was not mandatory and was to be administered by the DoD. Imagine our chagrin we showed up in the cafeteria to take the test and found military personnel waiting for us.

Regardless, we took the test and were then treated to at least two years of constant phone calls from recruiters from the various branches of the military. Since I hadn't chosen a preferred college yet, I agreed to meet with a recruiter from the Air Force. I don't remember much about his selling points, but I do remember him being hell-bent on having me sign papers to join, right there on the spot without much (if any) time to think it over. That resonated with me and made my decision to attend a university that much easier.

I know Dan Musick (he's a good man -- and a great Spanish Instructor) and I'm thrilled that he's extending military recruiters the same deal that university recruiters get.

Just a little walk down memory lane for you all...

We are all repeating ourselves here, so before I quit...

You all have made some good points and have some nice thoughts. Good luck with them.
Some of you are incredibly mean. No one takes you seriously.

As for George Bush - he is our President. Bill Clinton was my President, too. I managed to live through it. And you Bush-haters only have a year to go. I am not in agreement with several of this Administration's actions. The President is NOT a conservative. He's been wrong (in my opinion) on education, immigration, and spending in general. And yes, he has made mistakes on the war. We can agree on that.

So...that does it for me on this thread. Have a great day!

thank you, Dana (or perhaps that was Alyeska? :) i'd love to hear her words some day) your logic is really right on, and i'd love to hear an honest response from Brian...and Michael.

yes, i am "so emotional" (not a bad thing) about this subject. but my conflict is not so much with my brother as it is with the culture that tells him not to fight in school or in his community, but that our safe communities are only possible through fighting and killing elsewhere...the schools that have monthly words and slogans about cooperation, respect, and courtesy and provides mediators to resolve interpersonal conflicts, but allows the military to come onto his campus and tell him that some conflicts require combat, which is the ultimate honor...religion that tells him there's glory in murder, and that the "Prince of Peace" wants him to "vanquish the evil-doers". essentially, that "thou shalt not kill, unless..." the hypocrisy is staggering...except to the ones who live and propagate it.

Cody got exactly what he sought...he's chosen precisely as he's been trained to choose, with the help of the militaristically violent video games that my mother allows in their home, only shaking her head in mild disapproval silently, from the side. and when she sends her son off to cannon-fodder school, will she still be shaking her head silently, from the side? when he comes home in a box, having fought and died for nothing, will she still shake her head silently?

evan, I feel for you.

For Urbanek and Brian Cox, take a look at our delusional Commander in Chief's latest comments (quoted from Yahoo News):

"Three decades later, there is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left," Bush said Wednesday. "Whatever your position is on that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms, like 'boat people,' 'reeducation camps,' and 'killing fields,'" he said."

So now Iraq is just like Vietnam, and the problem in Vietnam was that we left too early. Wow.

That's what your son in law is fighting for, Mr. Urbanek. George Bush's delusion that we were winning in Vietnam all that time, and if we'd just stayed and poured more dead Americans into the jungle, killed more peasants, bombed more villages, there would have been a different result.

Take a look at what Vietnamese think about Bush's grasp of reality:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070823/ap_on_re_as/vietnam_iraq_bush_1;_ylt=AhDPxpcHIkngL7ZKTIlnsWb9xg8F

Is it okay just to stand by while the President makes "mistakes", based on such gross delusions?

Oh, I know, you won't even attempt to answer these or any real questions.

I don't mean to pick on you, because it seems to me that you don't try to struggle with the real questions because you feel you don't have the answers.

But that raises another question: Why is that OK? If you can't understand what your government is doing enough to explain it, why is your fallback answer that you should just blindly support them?

Wow Prince,

Don't ask questions like that, you're being mean.

Why would anyone WANT to enlist in a broken military that is being horribly mismanaged by the civilian administration? The problem is not with the generals or the brave soldiers on the ground. Its Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, Rice and the rest of the chickenhawk neocon cabal that never served a day in their lives. They refuse to provide proper armor, uparmored vehicles, family support back home, medical care, PTSD treatment, the list goes on and on. To say that supporting this war is supporting the troops is absurd. Supporting the troops is wanting them home. From today's news:

Pentagon cuts armored vehicles due in Iraq in 2007
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2244185020070822

U.S. troops in Iraq will receive at least 1,000 fewer special armored vehicles than expected this year due to the amount of time needed for shipment, the Pentagon said on Wednesday.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said the Defense Department expected defense contractors to produce 3,900 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles this year. But only 1,500 would make it to the war zone -- down from the Pentagon's previous shipment target of 2,500 to 3,000.

Tyler brings up another incredibly valid point that i've not yet even touched: Why would anyone WANT to enlist in a broken military that is being horribly mismanaged by the civilian administration?

not only is the Pentagon NOT sending the troops more body armor or vehicles, check out what they DID want to send them: "Bibles, proselytizing material in English and Arabic and the apocalyptic computer game “Left Behind: Eternal Forces” (derived from the series of post-Rapture novels), in which “soldiers for Christ” hunt down enemies who look suspiciously like U.N. peacekeepers."

read the entire article, SERIOUSLY.

Michael: I'm sorry if anyone was unfriendly in their response to your comments. But, as I've found out on some of my postings here and elsewhere, if you say something that appears to have not been thought out, before sharing them, you are going to get nailed, and rightfully so. We are not here for platitudes, but an actual honest exchange, in the spirit of community(at least it is with me).

You said something about our life expectancy of 90 years and for us to basically forget trying to make a difference in our alloted time, for "Human nature, sadly is what it is.". First, let me say I'm sick of that phrase: It is what it is. Donald Rumsfeld made that phrase a popular saying of the far out right, and sadly, it's now lexicon, among all the other cache of cute witticisms of those who can't tell the truth. Secondly, if our "puny" existence matters not, why do you bother to tell us. Is your suggestion simply as useless as the argument you make?

Your claim that Mr. Musick is playing "politically correct" in Ojai by cooperating with "kooks"(now who is being mean?) on the issue of Opting Out. Since when does taking an active role in what our kids are exposed to, channeling influences that are good towards them and those that are unsavory away from them become "left wing"? Again, your saying it is so, does not make it so. Did your children join the armed forces? If so, do they regret it at all? Regardless, it was your right to encourage them to do so, just as it is my right to discourage my children from joining. It's also my right as a parent to head off anyone approaching my kid, regardless of who they are or what they represent, be it the U.S. Govt. or those dastardly little girls in uniform(clearly right wingers) knocking on my door, harassing me at star market entrances, making me buy all those cookies, they know I can't say no.

On the point of being Liberal. Most on the O.P. fit that description. But they love their country just as much as you and I do(I'm not a Liberal). This polarizing rhetoric is and was Karl Roves strategy to wedge apart the political spectrum allowing for his worming bush into power grabs that otherwise, under normal political dialogue could not have occurred. So please, move away from the far out right, and drop the talking points, and expound on the facts of the debate.

Urbanek, Cox, et al:

i can appreciate the one-time usefulness and contributions of the telegraph, and still acknowledge (and be grateful for) that i am posting this instantly, globally...that we've evolved, if you will.

i can appreciate the historical significance of a black-and-white four-channel television, and still enjoy a brilliantly-colored plasma screen with a bazillion channels.

in the same way, i can acknowledge the role of the military in securing some of our lands and liberties, but still enjoy moving beyond militarism, beyond brain stem societies, Beyond War.

Re Bush's, uh, "interesting" (?) views on Vietnam:

Maybe if George W. Bush had gone to Vietnam, instead of relying on his Daddy's favors to dodge it, he would understand that the problem there was not that we left too early, but that 1) we went in the first place, compounded by 2) we stayed too long.

I don't know how many we killed there(Vietnam) other than to say it had to have been hundreds of times what we did so far in Iraq. When people started to make comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam at and around the outset of our invasion of Iraq, most scoffed and dismissed it as ridiculous.

People are not scoffing anymore, even president despicable has come around to making the comparisons, albeit incorrect ones. What would he know? AWOL and on Cocaine at the time, his military career was disgraceful and dishonorable.

So Evan, I take it that you do not believe in God. Is the rest of your family religious?

Brian, you are correct: i do not believe in a god, and my family is religious. are you making a value judgment, or is there some point there? i guess i'm missing the relevance.

Brian, evan's comment was pointing out that while Bush can't send troops basic armor, he can give millions of tax dollars to religious fundamentalists to distribute proselytizing materials to our soldiers, to try to convert them to their cultish fringe sects.

Now surely you are not saying that people who believe in God should approve of that?

Are you familliar with the Constitution? Have you heard of something called the First Amendment? The Establishment Clause? The Free Exercise Clause? Perhaps you can explain to us where, under our constitutional system, Bush gets the power to use our tax dollars to proselytize on behalf of minor whacko sects to our soldiers in the field?

Anyone get a load of Michael Urbanek's rant in today's OVN?

no, Anonymous, i didnt...but thanks for reminding me to follow up with our dear friends at the OVN: i signed up for an online-only subscription a couple weeks ago and have received NOTHING! can you give us the gist of the rant, or transcribe it here?