ojai news at The Ojai Post :: blog, newspaper, events in Ojai, California

Human sacrifice? Uh...call the police?

Sounds like a major league geek to me. Come on, human sacrifice...what a load.

I'd probably offer her a little salt and pepper.

The Ojai Post: Flagship of Thought and Community Discourse for all the Valley's sacred and sacrificed relations!!!

having lived in LA for 15 years, I can assure you that donning black clothing and ominous symbols are a pre-requisite for any evening activity in the greater Hollywood area.

red herring: nizkor dot org/features/fallacies/red-herring dot html

Depends which humans were being sacrificed?

(I get it evan, though it seems most didn't.) I believe you do whatever you can to know in your heart that you tried your best to stop, not only the potential human sacrifice, but the loss of your own friend's innocence. You also have to accept at least part of the responsibility for their actions if you do nothing at all. If something were to happen to your friend, or someone else, you might never be able to forgive yourself for not trying. You must try.

Like so many of us over our lifetimes who have worked to stop wars, genocides, greed that leads to others demise, or have worked to make our neighborhoods safe for our children, you can never give up the fight. Though it may seem futile, you never give up!

As for the needs you are satisfying? It’s the need to love and care for someone who you want to keep in your life. It may be a selfish need, but nonetheless it is a valid one. It’s also a need to protect and that’s a good thing too!

You go, evan!

Even Evan
How about a more realistic scenario that does not involve media-enforced stereotypes? Did your friend join the military?

thanks to all...some of your responses are very telling and - perhaps unintentionally - revealing and insightful:
anonymous 5:54pm - would you please post your hierarchy of human values so we know at what point we should step in and stop the sacrifice?

Coleen knows what i'm talking about, and Aleister asks for a more realistic scenario. my friend, the metaphor is pretty thin indeed.

The Metaphor, Revealed:
my dear brother has nurtured a long-time interest in the machinery and strategies of warfare, and has recently started wearing Marines tshirts and sporting Marines key fobs. i found out second-hand that he has begun the initiation process of joining the military, which practices involuntary human sacrifice (also known as state-sponsored murder, the war on _________, service to one's country, and one's duty).

i believe i must first understand his motivations and needs, and that i must NOT hold "stopping him from joining" as my goal. i want to be respectful of his ability to make adult decisions, but satisfy my own needs for comfort and safety knowing that he's as informed and educated as he can be about the decision. i could go on and on with the seemingly opposing complexities that make this a difficult situation for me. for those who wish to contribute, my original questions still stand:

Do i do anything to prevent him from joining? Where do my rights end and his begin? If i do choose to stop him, to what lengths will i go to accomplish this? What needs - his and mine - are at work here? What is the price of taking action vs. the price of doing nothing?

are we all just pawns in your game, evan??

http://www.jesuscomplex.com/

sacred,

not at all. we send young people off to kill and be killed all the time like it's the most natural thing in the world...we're all conditioned to believe that it is. so i think that coming right out with the real situation would not have raised many eyebrows at all. i wanted to paint it in a different light first, to get more "real" responses to the essence of what's happening.

my favorite comment so far is the first anonymous' "...uh, call the police?" indeed, when we have reason to believe that someone may kill or be killed, why wouldnt we engage some kind of corrective authority?

can you please explain the relevance of the link you posted?

Not sure the analogy holds. Satanic cults that practice human sacrifice don't exist. Most of the people that dance around claiming to be satanists wearing black, etc. are usually socially inept half-wits. Same goes for most other religious cults as well. If someone were really sacrificing people because they joined a cult, they and the rest of the cult would be criminals and the State would come in and arrest them.

I feel for your dilemma with your brother; however, for the purposes of your analogy, the important thing to understand is that the satanic cult is not analogous to the State. That our State's foreign policy is appalling, misdirected, stupid, shortsighted and even internationally criminal is not the point. Your "friend" joining the cult would be beginning a criminal endeavor and it would be incumbent upon you to try and stop her. Your brother joining the US armed forces, while terribly upsetting and a bit frightening, is not a criminal endeavor. At least not according to law the way it's been understood since the beginning of the nation-state. For that reason, you have zero right to "stop" him if he is an adult. You probably have, and definitely should try to explain your world-view to him. By all means, try all manner of familial dissuasion. If it were me, I'd get all worked up and probably use violent language and everything. To tell you the truth, I'm more concerned that your brother doesn't already see our foreign policy for what it is. I'm afraid it sounds like he really wants to do violence, and that's why he wants to join up. If that's the case, I fear there is little you can do but be there to help pick up the pieces after it's all said and done.

thanks Sean,

i agree with you that under current culture and law that the analogy doesnt hold. perhaps the point is: shouldnt it? honestly i dont see much difference at all between the two scenarios, and yet only one is totally illegal and legal-action-worthy.

everything else you've described is very resonant with me, and is generally the route i'm taking. as i stated earlier, physically or otherwise blocking him from joining would create new problems and unmet needs, even if i were "successful". so it needs to be all about education, world-view-explaining, familial discussions, and the like. unfortunately his religion, like most religions, supports both war and peace, depending on which verses you read.

for the record, he's 17...which means he's got an adult who's willing to sign with/for him.

Evan, You and your brother represent two sides of the same coin. Both sides of this particular coin, are reactionary. His focus on "war", springs from your focus on "peace", and vice versa. Could you expand your focus a little? I know you believe the trivia of your personal life, somehow is relevant, but your self indulgent copy is reading like Dear Abby. There are other, more appropriate venues, for the family/group therapy, you seem to be attempting to instigate.

Please,

thanks for your contribution and for the free analysis of my beliefs and role in the world.
i think this discussion is relevant at the public, community level because there are bigger issues of war and the war culture at work, and because when my brother joins the Marines he becomes government property which belongs to us, the voting Citizens.

the fact that it's my brother is simply the vehicle by which this issue came personally into my life. i'm not looking for group therapy for myself, but perhaps i am for our community and our culture.

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at the responses here to evan’s dilemma regarding his brother joining the Marines. Most people believe that “state sponsored murder” is ok; unless of course it’s your loved one being murdered.

I know evan’s brother and I’m sure he is going into the military for what he believes are the right reasons. He believes the propaganda being fed to him by the media, his school, his friends, his church, his neighbors, and his government. He’s probably never been taught to think critically about what he’s being told. I know I wasn’t at his age. I bought all the propaganda hook, line, and sinker!

I don’t think the people in the countries we attack feel so forgiving towards a nation who come into their country and murder them, or their families, while defense contractors, oil conglomerates, and the financial elite get richer! I don’t think they see the difference between individuals murdering their children or countries murdering their children. Their children are still dead and their lives are still ruined AND they are innocent!

As Randy Rhodes stated today on her Air America radio show, “This is the biggest heist in the history of the world” and she’s right! These thieves even had the nerve to originally name this war Operation Iraqi Liberation.

Why shouldn’t caring people try to stop other innocent people from participating in this unjust war and why isn’t this web site a good place to discuss these issues? When will the human race understand that war is not the answer? When will soldiers understand that if they stop being front line fodder for the rich and powerful war will end?

Hello darkness my ol friend,
I’ve come to walk with you again ...

...

People writing songs that voices never shared,
As no one dared
Disturb the sounds of silence.

Fools! said I, you do not know,
Silence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you.”

But my words like silent raindrops fell…
And echoed in the wells of silence ...

'I guess I shouldn't be surprised' to see such a fine example of ingratiation...

I have great admiration for your efforts to respect your brother's rights. The point of the analogy, though, still holds for me. If one stops a child from running across the street, is that person interfering in the dignity of the child? Yes. Should one intervene anyway? Yes!

I am grateful to the returning Viet Nam vets who patiently explained to me, when I was 16, that the war was not what our government claimed it to be, and stopped me from enlisting, and from being killed or murdering others. I hope your brother listens. There was an anti-war song from WW-I about the Christmas truce. The last line of which is
"...The ones who call the shots won't be among the dead and lame, and on each end of the rifle we're the same."
Almost a century later, kids still want to let others tell them it's OK to keep marching. It isn't. Someone has to let them know.

I don't know how you should approach this with your brother. It's probably too late to make him see the truth as you and many others see it. Sorry. If only you knew some here in Ventura County who served in the Mid-East, who are willing to talk to your brother about the reality awaiting him. If he would listen, maybe.

It was my eldest brother's recollections of Vietnam(He did two tours of duty) that started my reappraisal of the propaganda our leaders spew forth, on war and anything else they want to sell us on.

Without much fettering from our media at large, who enjoy all the protections from government interference, by our constitution, by default, endorse the actions taken by our leaders. So how can we open the eyes of millions like your brother, who are bombarded daily with the official hype on the "War on Terrorism". If I knew that, the war in Iraq would be over.

I too have relatives over there(Iraq), none that I know in person, but rather over the internet. I do think of the unnecessary peril that they are caught up in. They, like your brother, don't see it as I do.

But do as you must, what ever you can to lead him away from this decision. Forget integrity, supposed integrity in part is what got us into this mess to begin with. Love of Brother, trumps all in life. We are our brother's keeper. Do you/we, choose to put a hand forward, to help others or not, and bear the sacrifice inherent in such extending on one's self.

Thanks for sharing what you are going through. Thousands of families across the Continent have gone through this trial, and thousands more are now just entering the debate in a very personal way.

thank you for your thoughtful, compassionate, and serious responses. before this slips off the front page, i express gratitude for the willingness of most of you to open up this issue both with me and with yourselves. i still believe that dialogues like this are critical parts of moving forward, dissecting those bits of society and culture that dont seem to be serving our needs or the greater good, and finding rational and healthy ways to make progress.

Evan, Wow. The two things I thought about as I read all of this were: 1: Code Pink and, by extension, the OPC have sponsored leafleting and so forth at high schools to help the students understand their options and the tactics being used by the recruiters. If it is okay to do with strangers, isn't it okay to do with family and friends?
2: See if your brother will consent to talk with you and a vet in person. You may not get everything out of it that you want, but the realities of military service (in Iraq and outside) are often not what is sold to young recruits. I don't know anyone personally, but I can help you find someone appropriate if you don't have a resource.
And 3: What a challenge this must be for you in your family of origin, as you begin your own nuclear family. My heart is with you.