ojai news at The Ojai Post :: blog, newspaper, events in Ojai, California

For most of my life I have been a pacifist and a peace activist. As Gandhi taught us, the act of non-violence is one of the most courageous acts one can take. In fact, Gandhi said he would rather use violence than be cowardly (not an exact quote). What does peace mean to me? In my opinion and experience, peace starts from within and then emanates out to all those we encounter. Some examples:

* knowing oneself
* knowing "god" (a generic * reference to religion and spirituality)
* teaching our children to * handle conflict constructively with love and compassion
* talking to, and knowing, my neighbors
* staying involved with my local community
* volunteering my time
* being with the poor (thank you Mother Teresa)
* understanding the connection between poverty and violence

Is attending an "anti-war" rally part of the equation? It can be. To be honest, I have been disappointed with the rally movement and have not always participated. There is so much more to being a peace activist than attending a rally once or twice a year. We need to live our peace. Though I have not been able to put my life on the line in another country, there are many organizations that are worthy of our support that take this courageous action.

* Nonviolent Peaceforce (http://www.nonviolentpeaceforce.org)
* Christian Peacemaker Teams (http://www.cpt.org)
* Fellowship of Reconciliation (http://www.forusa.org/programs/colombia/colombiaprogram.html)

it is not a western idea of 'peace' that will achieve what our global family wants and needs ... nor Evan Austin's promotion of War rallies ...

it is RESPECT for culture and the divine living Earth which is the ONLY remedy, the only rally -- change of lifestyle, awakening -- which will change the world and our hearts.

(not 'peace' which only means the war has been removed from the frontpages and the television ... the war against the world has never slacked up, in North American history, whether or not published in the media.)

if you are promoting a return of the troops -- rather than an end to cultural warfare -- you are ONLY PROMOTING A CONTINUATION OF THE RAPACITY AGAINST PLANET AND PEOPLE.

that is why I NEVER SUPPORT these WAR AND PEACE RALLIES and never will ...

because I have a heart and mind.

which can therefore only speak the truth to a beloved WORLD family.

with all our relations,
not against them ...

Millennium Twain

I'm pro-impeachment.

Heather:
Thanks for starting what appears to be a lively discussion on a timely topic, today being the 4th anniversary of the start of the Iraq War (and thanks to Evan Austin for turning me on to the Ojai Post). The topic reminds me of debates we used to have long into the night back in my college days in the 60s: Can we change the world through politics, rallies, etc., or do we have to spiritually change ourselves first? For a number of years I subscribed to the latter view and did the inner work, though I could never resist getting involved in various causes that came along, primarily those that affected me personally and locally, following the "think globally, act locally" philosophy. Now that I look back on that question we used to debate my opinion is that, like most things, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Unless one pursues a life of pure spiritual practice in a monastery or ashram, one will be faced with the many wrongs done against people and the planet on a daily basis. If spiritual practice involves living in truth then sometimes one is called on to "speak truth to power." At that point, it is all-important HOW one expresses his/her point of view. As a student of Gandhi who worked for Martin Luther King, Jr. I try to practice nonviolence all day every day no matter what I'm doing but I try to pay special attention to potential conflict situations. Remember Buffalo Springfield's "For What It's Worth?" "...singing songs and carrying signs, mostly saying hooray for our side." Rallies and demonstrations always carry the risk of oversimplifying the issues, leading to taking sides and, inevitably, to conflict. That's why Dr. King went to great lengths to train his followers in how to hold a nonviolent demonstration. That's why he and Gandhi believed, as I do, in praying AND demonstrating.

Although I must confess I'm a little put off by Millenium Twain's self-righteous anger, I agree with him/her, if I understand him correctly, that our species' treatment of each other and the planet is all connected. Until a sufficient number of earthlings recognize that we and all living things are One, we will continue to ride this juggernaut towards doomsday. How they reach that realization is not for me to judge. As for myself, I feel most at-one with the world and the planet when I'm burying the kitchen scraps in my compost pile.

WHAT WOULD GANDHI DO?

During World War II, Gandhi penned an open letter to the British people, urging them to surrender to the Nazis. Later, when the extent of the holocaust was known, he criticized Jews who had tried to escape or fight for their lives as they did in Warsaw and Treblinka. “The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife,” he said. “They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.” “Collective suicide,” he told his biographer, “would have been heroism.”

Now that's peaceful (death).....or did he just hate Jews?

So if you're "into" Gandhi and "really" anti-war, you should go to Iraq and Iran and offer yourselves to the butcher’s knife - or beheading sword as it were.

There has never been peace on this earth since fish, avians, reptiles, and mammals emerged. The only time there will be peace is when the Biota is free of Fauna.

I am PRO....pro victory over those whose goals are to murder me, enslave women, annihilate Jews and homosexuals, and rule the world with swords.

Excellent commentary Lanny.

My personal opinion is that I feel instictively that we are better off with the Evans of this world, who are actually DOING something, than we are with those who consistantly preach and lecture and point fingers at anybody who doesn't live up to their particular ideal of how a human being should behave - whether it be spiritually, politically or materially. Carry on Evan and everybody else who is engaged (in all sorts of ways and at many different levels) in the fight to save our planet and our species. Keep on "walking the walk" and let those who only "talk the talk" stew in their own unproductive juices.

As a librarian, I just had to do a little research on the Gandhi quote above.

The first paragraph above by "Troyster" was not written by our Ojai friend, but by Fred Thompson, an actor and former United States senator from Tennessee (see http://tinyurl.com/2z8rbm).

Of course, with a quote like that, the conservative bloggers and publications have had a heyday.

It is definitely a troubling quote and one that could easily be misunderstood (not that I understand). Gandhi also said that the holocaust was the "greatest crime of our time." Though I am not a Gandhi scholar (I have read many books on and by him and attended Gandhi workshops) I do know that Gandhi was a very complicated and unorthodox man. He lived unlike any man before or since.

A person who was heavily influenced by Gandhi was Martin Luther King. On April 4, 1967 Dr. King gave a speech at Riverside Church in NYC on the Vietnam War that is worth a read.

Kenley,
Re your inexact quote a few posts above, Gandhi said much on the subject of cowardice and non-violence. Here is one quote of many: ""I do believe that, when there is only a choice betwen cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." (All Men Are Brothers, UNESCO, 1958, p. 104). And, relative to some of the comments posted above, he also said in the same book (p. 89), "No man could be actively non-violent and not rise against social injustice no matter where it occurred."

Yes, he was a complex man and one could surely ferret out seeming contradictions. To wit, "At the time of writing I never think of what I have said before. My aim is not to be consistent with my previous statements on a given question, but to be consistent with truth, as it may present itself to me at a given moment." (Ibid, p. 170) He goes on, but I can't right now.

Thank you Lanny; you captured the essence much better than I -- there is a reason he is one of the most quoted individuals of the last century. :-)

four things:

1) thank you to Lanny for sharing your self with us. i know you're home sick today, but what a benefit to our discussion!

2) Millennium, would you email me? i dont want to divert the intent of this thread, but would like to know more from you about what i could be doing differently/additionally/better to promote/live/share/create real peace.

3) it's very amusing to me how both war-supporters and war-opposers alike use sending each other to Iraq as a threat or punishment. since Iraq is going so well, shouldnt it be a delightful reward to be sent there?

4) to promote the ideas i like, i share them with other people. i do this a LOT through the spoken (or typed) word, and i'm also trying to share the ideas i like by living them. Millennium is a hero of mine in that regard, as are so many others. i have much to learn, and many directions to grow. i hope its valuable that i at least realize that.

you seen to have a lot of love, Evan,

so let us share this in public.

I remember attending a discussion of 'peace' at your home last year ...
yet no one wanted to discuss that topic ... everyone wanted to promote
gangster American and Democratic party and (non-Earth-sacred, non-cultural-respecting) 'left' and fake-activist notions.

as for all these fraudulent antiwar rallies -- all of them are pro-war, even more pro-war than the Bush Administration ...

whenever America takes the wars OFF the TV screens and frontpages, then they escalate off the map ... and so too the profits for the Democratic administrations (and all) who 'ministrate;' them. [and NOT by accident!]

[remember the war in Indochina ... the French were making TOO TOO much profit off the drug-trade from the Triangle ... so Kennedy kicked the French out and did the coup d'tat there ... and America harvested all the opium profits from then on ...]

similarly, the total fraud of Al Gore ... and the Democrats ... who are proposing an INCREASE in global warming and devastation thru the deception of the "Inconvenient Truth" movie ... and the 'greengas' legislation nonsense.

viz:

http://www.algore.com/index2.html

you, Evan, perhaps well-meaning ... I have not reached a good feeling on that yet ... are promoting activism and politics and legislation and events which are only INCREASING the war against the Middle East, and all world cultures, and against our beloved Mother Earth.

speak to any native american ... speak to any polynesian or latin American or African or Asian ... they can tell you where you are a hundred and eighty degress pointed in the wrong direction ...

doing violence against planet and people, though the language and dogma of your education is telling your head that you are doing good.

Evan, you need a bigger (global-culture) head. a head full of the practice of respecting and understanding ... not playing out the Matrix program.

you are doing 'not good', my beloved brother,

you are furthering the imminent destruction of gaia and her children.

with all loving respect,

Millennium Twain

..

Millenium -

How "enlightened" you must be to be able to assess the values, feelings and emotions of the entire populations of 3 continents!

Did I just read what you wrote correctly?!?! Ask ANY Asian, ANY African, ANY Latin American what their stance on war is?!?! This a classic example of how words and phrases become MEANINGLESS when written or spoken by those who need to comfort themselves in their own rhetoric. I have either lived or traveled extensively in the areas populated by the people you mention and I can assure you - they are just as diverse and collectively conflicted in their values, attitudes, behaviours and priorities as any other group of people living together in one place.

Evan, I am sure you will be much more articulate in your response than I can be right now (as I am stunned and almost "speechless" by the above post). But I think most of us agree that until Millenium "reaches a good feeling" about your intentions and deems you "worthy", hopefully you know that many of us Philistines out here applaud what you do and what you are all about.

Yeah, I'd like to vouch for evan's sincerity, respect and good intentions as well. evan is far more enlightened and motivated to effect positive change in the world at a young age than 99% of the people out there.

It sounds like you differ with evan philosophically, Millennium, but to accuse him of "furthering the imminent destruction of gaia and her children" strikes a wrong chord to me.

thank you, Millennium...i'm comfortable to continue in this public forum.

i dont usually know you to come off with such an angry energy (most all the other comment-makers have felt it too), so i'm wondering what has you so upset. from your words, it's tempting to think that i, personally, have offended you and our planet by somehow actively seeking our collective demise. that hurts just a little, as i feel some defensive energy inside me.

i remember well that meeting at my home to which you refer. it was the first of such that i'd hosted, and was less structured than it could have been (not excuses, just explanations). it's clear to me now - a year or so later - that it wasnt what you expected or didnt meet your needs. for balance, i dont think anyone there could grasp a single thing that you had to say. by that i mean that you're very smart and eloquent, but almost to a fault. even still, it takes me a LOT of energy to decode your words. again, not a criticism...just a sharing of my reality and experience of you.

i guess to grasp at some sort of brevity, i am still at a loss as to what it is that i'm doing that is so violent and destructive. you direct me to inquire of entire races and continents to which i have no access. what i have access to is you, the accuser. so i'm asking YOU. it is not helpful to me that you point the beloved finger of brotherly blame...i need your help.

[gratitude to the Philistines! there is discomfort in both praise and its counterpart, but i really do appreciate your support.]

there is much wisdom around me, and i try to learn from it all. now, i need yours.

I feel I am beginning to sense your infinite love, Evan,

by looking through your actions, and your cultural isolation/youthfulness ...

I can think of two people here in Ojai, whom I think you know well enough, that if you sat down with them and asked them sincerely how a young person of cultural insulation can take a deep breath and learn respect, learn to understand what the western political/corporate/religious machine has done to Mother Earth, to the Women of the World, to the tens of thousands of Cultures of the planet ...

ask them -- or any elder of the native peoples who walked the spirit path -- to explain to you what devastation has been visited upon planet and people and ancestral wisdom ...

ask with sincerity, and be ready to receive, and I believe you are at the place where they WILL speak to you truly.

Julie Tumamait, the Chumash Elder, for one. and Raymond Powers, musician, lightworker, for another.

you see, CULTURE is a way of seeing and knowing the living world, the self, the spirit, and the whole divine cosmic wilderness.

one requires the insights of many CULTURES to broaden to levels of enlightenment, understanding, of self and Earth and the wisdom of the elders.

true, I have the benefit of several years of living abroad, and actually living with different native and asian cultures. and, I recall with great shame, what little I understood of respect and spirit before I traveled ...

though I could have taken the opportunities to live with the Native Americans while I was younger ... and to mix with the Asian and Hispanic and other populations ...

I did so, but apparently not enough to make any broad impact on my heartmind ... not until I was ready and went afar, and lived exclusively amongst the other cultures with no recourse to (safety net) of my 'homeland' culture of California.

are you beginning to get a feel for, a vision of, what I am trying to share with you?

with all our beloved relations,

Millennium Twain

Um...Mellennium and Evan...be careful not to slop the koolaid - many more of your ilk will be in line behind you for their cup of peace.

To all those who posted above, a heartfelt thanks from me to all of you. It is that dialogue between all of you, that defines for me the essence of what this post is all about, 'People living a life grand and sharing their path' to those like myself who want to learn still from others.

Indeed, I'm learning.

Kenley,

Is it correct that Troyster actually plagiarized on this blog. And not only that, but he plagiarized from former Sen. Fred Thompson of all people?

I thank Kenley and Evan and Lanny who have spoken about active ways to promote their ideals.

I encourage the rest of you to take a few minutes to step back from the drama we all find it so easy to get into and answer the question.

Millenium, your ongoing character assasinations of Evan have successfully twisted this thread into yet another arena in which we are focused on confilct and on the negative. In what way does that serve the values of peace and cultural understanding you seem to profess?

Millenium, what do you do, on a daily basis, to promote "RESPECT for culture and the divine living Earth?" Dig deep on this one: Do your words on this thread truly show respect for Evan?

I second that.

in very brief:

• Millennium, i have one ounce of clarity about what you may be trying to share: it would seem as though your pet solution for world harmony lies almost exclusively in CULTURE and a broader understanding of our world's workings and inhabitants. i agree with you 100% that that's PART of the solution, but i will maintain that there are multitudes of paths to our goal, and ALL are significant and essential. i will seek out Julie and Raymond. thank you.

• thank you, Heather, for getting us back on track. i know threads get "hijacked" all the time and the organic nature of blogs is difficult to predict or control, but i DO think this is an important, revealing, and exploratory topic if we give it a chance. in fact, since most threads top off at about the number of posts that this one has, i wonder if it would be improper to start it over...
i'd like to share that i've decided to reduce my weekly local car trips by 3-4 by riding my bike instead. people like Suza and Millennium inspire me to do so. for me, this promotes the ideas and values of personal health, of community, and of ecology. three for the price of one!

As someone who has participated in muliti-cultural programs since my teenage years, I can agree with what (I think) Millenium keeps referring to - and that is the fact that it is vitally important (especially as Americans where the tendency towards ethnocentric behaviour and points of view can be perhaps a stronger pull than anywhere else) to learn about and incorporate other aspects of life that happen outside our limited (and isolated) purview. Sometimes it is easy, delightful and even life-changing to experience such differences, other times much harder (and uncomfortable) to allow tolerant cultural relativism to seep into our thought process and add other dimensions to our belief systems.

Where I diverge from Millenium's attitude on this topic, is where I believe that EVERY culture has positive aspects from which to draw inspiration, insight, hope, brotherly love, etc. And this would include the Christian community, Western civilization, and all the other groups that (as I see it) Millenium seems to rail against. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can only try to decipher what I read.

I also vehemently feel that someone like Evan who daily resists the narcissitic, self-indulgent and narrow-minded mentalities that many his age seem to claim as rites of passage should be nutured and guided, not attacked and nipped in the bud. Everyone should have mentors in life and I think Ojai is a great community in which to draw from. Good luck Evan - and be careful on the roads!

aye Evan, LTOR, world-culture, the ALL which we have to learn and share and preserve ... the positive, enlightening, wholesome from ALL cultures.

as Heather is trying to point out in this discussion, it is our daily lifestyles, our daily service ... and I might say 'nothing else' ... which brings us to the multicultural and to the nurturing and global community building.

that is why I have been so sad the last year or two, listening to all of Evan's emails, and seeing the actions, supporting the gangster government/corporate machines.

ONLY through lifestyle changes ... not supporting the political monster ... can we change our selves, our communities and our world ... that is the only way to end the war, which has been escalating for sixty years.

viz ... that is why I have never attended one of the fascist actions that Evan has been supporting ... he unknowing, lovingly ... because they all support the murder machine of the media and corporate state which is only escalating the war.

if ever Evan -- and any of our beloved sister/brothers here in Goddess Moon -- schedules a meeting or workwhop or action to show to the world that we are personally thru lifestyle changes 1) reducing our car/energy use 50 percent this year, 2) putting organic gardens in our and our neighbors yards, 3) cutting our paper use and waste generation 90 percent, 4) ending our addiction to TV and the western press 90 percent, and listening to the global, multicultural, native, and sacred press planetwide ...

sponsoring our children, families, friends and neighbors with bicycles ...

learning and teaching the ways, here in 'Awha'y, of the Chumash people in harmony with nature ...

returning the waterways, wildlife and diversity of forest to the valley ...

then I will promote, and often participate in, these sacred INTENTIONAL mindful activities one thousand percent.

this change I made in my life in 1990, finally giving up my car in 1997, and I have only increased my returning to sacred and community ways every year since.

some here may know of the five year raw vegan organic fast against the war which I started some six years ago ... and participated with and promoted to millions worldwide.

one step, every day, we each can make, sharing HONESTLY, truly, together ...

perhaps starting wholly, quietly ... in prayer and fast ... getting out of the sugar/anger in our heads ...

Millennium Twain

Quoting LTOR:

"Evan who daily resists the narcissistic, self-indulgent and narrow-minded mentalities that many his age seem to claim"

This reminds me of someone a lot older than Evan, named "Millennium" And here are some reasons why:

Narcissistic:

1. He named himself "Millennium" and hides behind that name as if it makes him this new and amazing person. Why not just go by your original name? Isn't one of your mantras "sharing honestly with eachother"?? We all change Mr. Twain, but that doesn't mean a transformation warrants a name change. Or does it?

2. He is a self proclaimed "father of the space station"

3. He constantly writes and talks in pros as if everyone is benieth him. Step back down to earth, Mr. Twain and engage in an open conversation, where folks don't have to waste enery decoding your language.

4. He is constantly talking about things he has done to better the planet, the places he has been, the culture he has discovered... and along the way, he has forgotten the things WE ALL do as well.

Self-indulgent:

1. And I quote Mr. Twain

"some here may know of the five year raw vegan organic fast against the war which I started some six years ago ... and participated with and promoted to millions worldwide.
one step, every day, we each can make, sharing HONESTLY, truly, together ..."

WOW! I am amazed. Millions, worldwide? Good on ya!

2. He indulges on his own rhetoric like a hedinist in the vinyard.

Narrow-minded mentalities:

1. His philosophy is the only way we are all going to be saved!

2. If only Evan could learn the Millenium way, would Evan be worthy.

Evan --

You are more than welcome to join me on the SBCC Van Pool. We depart and return daily. This offer goes for any other SBCC-affiliated person. The cost is $6/round trip.

Millenium,

You asked if anyone would "schedule a meeting or workwhop or action to show to the world that we are personally thru lifestyle changes."

I did that, right here on the Post. Kenley, Evan and Lanny participated intentionally, mindfully and fully.

perhaps the above was unclear because I took a small piece of text out of context. I opened an action here on the Post for people to show the world how they are changing the world with their lifestyles.

Here is the quote I originally referenced: "I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there."
-Mother Teresa

Here's another I loved:
" It is easy to love the people far away. It is not always easy to love those close to us. It is easier to give a cup of rice to relieve hunger than to relieve the loneliness and pain of someone unloved in our own home. Bring love into your home for this is where our love for each other must start."

I would suggest that we include our home communities when thinking about this quote.

thank you for the reminder, Kenley! i'll probably start joining you on thursdays...do you go out to the freeway, or around the lake?

re: Heather's original idea (again), another thing that Jessie and i are doing to promote the ideas we like is learning to communicate compassionately and nonviolently. this is something that can be learned..a new vocabulary and mode of thinking and speaking and feeling that reduces the violence that we are contributing to our home communities, and then to the planet.

love, love, love ...

Episong: Eagle Meets the Condor - Prophecy Fulfilling ...

http://www.earthworksforhumanity.org/#TIMES

and Re: about Ceremonies for Peace ... Her Returning

here is a beautiful song of HER returning, from Arawak elder David Campbell:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=810Cfth6WP0

http://www.davidcampbellarts.com/

..

We do the lake/150 route. Leave my place on Drown at 6:25am.

Kenley wrote:

Is attending an "anti-war" rally part of the equation? It can be. To be honest, I have been disappointed with the rally movement and have not always participated. There is so much more to being a peace activist than attending a rally once or twice a year. We need to live our peace.

~~
~~~

on my knees ...

Mother Sun's light on my brow, her wind in this face ... caressing, speaking ... mist dripping from these eyes ...

as we know, the word 'peace', as everything in politics and the media and the church, is daily and intentionally perverted to mean servile obedient consumerism ...

in particular more oil, more industry, more automobiles, more television and complacency ... thus increasing devastation of Mother Earth, the women and children of the world, and our cultural wisdom ... during times of 'big brother's 'peace'.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=k6Igdcvxs1g

yet total constructive-affirming-awakening-nurturing-harmonizing activism the epiphany of non-violence -- is what we need to enroll, heal, motivate others and thus ourselves.

isolated lives of moderation, bicycle/garden/barter economies, seem to do nothing, or very little.

thus we look to the Evan's of the world to inspire and bring us together.

so how do we do so in non-violence? in ending the power-seeking consciousness of media and institution -- and bring the living joy of lives of increasing fresh air, quiet, pure water, laughter ringing -- reducing by fifty percent per year our (average consumer) use of auto and energy, shopping and petrochemical poison and media addiction?

how do we addict shopping/energy/auto druggies to health and happiness and community and nature?

what sort of rallies and activision will engage others in the good?

and thus find the expanding wonder in ourselves?

Millennium

Back in the mid-70s some of us put together an "Alternative Energy Faire" in Libbey Park. The star of the show was a man from Santa Paula named Tony Lamb who had a factory over there employing seniors to assemble his low-tech solar powered quadricycles. In 2004 I produced the first Ojai Peacefest. The following year I helped Dennis Daneau and Citizens for Peaceful Resolutions put it on as I had found it too much to do solo. Both years, the sound system was powered by Ojai Solar's Solar Roller. If a group out there wants to do something like either of those events again, I'd be happy to consult and lend a hand.

?What I'm I Pro?

I can't remember anything I've participated (public affirmations of Pro)in that was in the nature of big gatherings except maybe two. I was one of those who helped build, what I think was Ojai's first community garden. It was located where what I think is now Laurel Springs School, on the corner of Canada St. and Ojai Ave., across from Old Bayless.

It was a grand gesture of love and recognition for/of the envirorment, but held not one shovel full of dignity. You see, part of improving the soil was to bring manure in from the East End. We brought in big roomy flat bed trucks, filled them up, one shovel full at a time. That was work. By the time we half way filled up the beds, we realized we had little room for all the people participating. I, with a few other volunteers sat atop this heap with shovel in hand, waving to friends as we drove through town on this Hot, Busi Ojai Weekend. We could not hide. All we could do was laugh at our youthful predicament.

Another time was when David Hartman of one of the network morning shows was in town to do a show. At this time in Ojai, the concern was the surface mining up Hwy. 33. I showed up with many others and did what you, at such a gathering do. After the event died down, I approached Mr. Hartman. I left with the impression this was a genuine guy.

Those were my rare public affirmations, but where I'm truly Pro is at home with my family. I try to teach tolerance, even when I may show none. I explain that when they have a friend who doesn't act as one all the time, there may be something missing at home.
I ask them to take in the moment, for that moment will be gone in the next.In other words, I want them to savor the instant that is their life.Not get lost on the past or the future.

It is because my affirmations are more of a private concoction, more suited to my genetic wiring, I take great comfort and delight in those of you who stand out in the open, leading us.

My older brother Bruce was a big influence on me in those days and I thank him for being so tolerant when I wasn't.

I'm Pro Family, by my influence, that care, are tolerant, forgiving and inspiring to others, even when we don't feel it at the moment.