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The "surge" vs. "escalation" is a false issue, a classic Karl Rove shifting of the debate from when and how we get our troops out and end this war, to whether and how many additional troops we will send. "Victory" for the Democrats is now to keep troops levels as they are. Nice trick.

But it's "victory" for nobody except Bush's ego. I can't believe people are falling for this, and letting Bush and Rove control the debate yet again. This is the tactic we have dealt with from day one of the Bush presidency - they define their goal, and then propose something so outrageously fascistic and far to the right of what they want that it ends up a victorious compromise for the opposition when Bush and Co. get the merely outrageous policy they wanted in the first place - the scary thing being that more times than not they have ended up with most of the wacko far right fascist first proposals, without even getting to the "compromise". I doubt the Bushies anticipated that, which may be one reason why we are stuck in this war - they got a green light to go ahead with straw men that they never expected they would actually put in practice, so when they found themselves having to execute on the straw man policies, they had no real plan.

The right wingnuts are correct about one thing: going in and then "losing" Iraq, as we have already done, is a disaster for the United States. The right answer obviously was never to go in in the first place. But too late for that. When the U.S. gets out, the new Iraq, along with Iran, Syria and the rest of the middle east ultimately, will realign, making their deals with China, India and Europe. Its already happening. Meanwhile, Venezuela is re-prioritizing and the rest of Latin America has moved away from the United States, perhaps permanently. The only real solution for preserving some semblance of U.S. "interests" and "first-place" on the model of the last few decades - short of never going into Iraq in the first place, which anyone reading a newspaper in 2002 knew was the right thing to do - would have been turning Iraq over to the U.N. early after deposing Saddam - but Bush has broken the U.N. so badly that it is no longer a viable option.

At this point, Bush just wants to stay in Iraq to keep Iran, China, etc. from de facto taking over. He's going to spend lives to do it. But he's only delaying the inevitable, hoping something happens in the course of delay that gives some other option. As usual, he's wrong. Its a lost cause, we need to get out, and we need to deal with the consequences, which are going to require abandonment of the "unipolar" world of the neoconservatives - one that was doomed the moment the neocons added the idea of preemptive war to the mix. The sooner we do that, the sooner we begin the process of rejoining the world community and becoming part of what could be a better world.

I think Noam has some insight: http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~gharris/

I'm old, a vet, and have lived in the middle east.

Those of you who are bring-the-troops-home-now crowd are "useful idiots" for the terrorists.

Hint: if we do leave Iraq to the terrorists, you'll need to (in the next ten years), buy all the guns, ammo, and survival gear you can get your hands on. Make sure you can carry it all on your back.

It will start slow and far away (I saw it happen in Iran). New York, DC, Chicago....Edison plants and refineries, two then five, then fifteen malls will be bombed. Then sports events - wherever there's crowd. As it spreads, other gathering places will be hit.

What are you going to do when the malls and markets close, there is no electricity to run your fridges or computers, no gas for vehicles, no jobs.

Welcome to survival tactics in the 1800's.

You think we have a police-state now??? Your children will be begging for tamper-proof identity cards or under-the-skin chips to ID them as citizens.

Canada will be overrun with American refugees.

Keep standing silent at the park. Your grandchildren probably won't be able to follow in your footsteps as a peacenik.

As chaos grows, what do you think the L.A. and local gangs will do?

How do you think police will respond?

How will you respond to kill or be killed? Hold up a Make Peace sign?

Useful idiots.

Suggestion: buy horses and guard them with your life. It may be the only way goods will get in and out of the valley in 20 years.

Useful idiots.

Dennis thanks for your concern. After considering your statement, I realized it provided an opportunity to shed some light on how America has been manipulated:

Fear and Control

Fear has many uses. It can be used as a warning to keep you from entering into a situation that might hurt you. It can be used to motivate you away from something, such as a harmful relationship or a dangerous situation. It can also be used by others to control you.

How do people use fear to control others? When you understand what happens physiologically when people experience fear it becomes quite easy, as you'll see.
http://www.under-one-roof.net/spiritual/fear-control.html

I don't want to control anyone. I'd love to get as many people as possible together and go to Iraq to demonstrate for peace. I participated in peace marches in the early/mid sixties when I was in college.

I also know most of those who go to Iraq to demonstrate will die.

I know first hand what fear can do.

It's not fear I want to convey. It's the reality of what several goups of people want to accomplish here in this country. These groups comprise a few million souls bent on our destruction.

Do you think if we ignore the threat that everyone will be happy and forgive and forget?

I was a civilian evacuated from Iran because we were targeted as Americans. It varied from children with slingshots and stones to 50mm rounds whizzing past.

Until you see buckets of blood from the people begging for peace, you really shouldn't be thinking you know about FEAR.

Until you receive ground fire while in a helo trying to get the he## out od Dodge.....

Until someone puts a gun to your head that misfires...

You're right, fear is a great manipulator. If we don't fight them over there, when they come here you'll really understand how manipulative it can be.

Again...useful idiots for our enemies. Why not stand with our troops and say "We're not going to take this anymore - we will not submit to terror."

Then find something to do or say that supports our country.

DennisC,

Thanks for toning down your rhetoric.

I suggest you click the link and actually read the article. My suspicion is that you are being controlled by fear along with many unsuspecting Americans who do not know who to trust and have not made the transition of examining different points of view. You, in fact are submitting to terror by believing Fox news and CNN.

I do believe that we have the same goal in mind, I just don't think we trust the same sources. Who has continually lied? Who has told the truth?

The possibility of betrayal by leaders you once trusted may be a tough pill to swallow but I suspect it will lead you towards a better understanding of what's actually happening but there are no guarantees.

I believe that standing up to the manufacturers of War Hog Day is the only way to stop this brand of 'terror'.

Read it - mostly idiocy as it pertains to real life.
Questions:
1. Do you want to stop Iran from nuking Israel? If so, how do you propose they be stopped?

2. If Iran does attack Israel, who do you think will be next? (I don't think it will be us but it won't matter)

3.For the U.S.A., do you think isolationism is the answer? After all, the only countries that have the ability to hit us with ICBMs are Russia, China, and possibly N. Korea.

4.Should we just pull out of the world conflicts, close our borders and wait to see what shakes out? We ARE self-supportive.

There have always been and always will be wars on the planet as long as there are mammals alive. It started with the caveman protecting food and became much more sophiticated from then on. If you can, name me a 100 year period when there haven't been wars or rebellions somewhere on earth.

Let's give peace a chance: get out of and make the United Nations move to another country, break ties with all other planet-based organizations.

Are there some answers forthcoming? - other than "feeling" our trust has been misplaced or we have been duped by rich, greedy white men.

Start thinking global or keep out of the way. If you can't come up with reasonable stategies or answers, shut up. It only amounts to whining.

The meek shall inherit the earth - I've seen it happen - they're about six feet under the topsoil.

Forget Bush, Rove, Kennedy, etal.....

For everything that has been written here - please read more of an intelligent and historically correct perspective from this gentleman. Read it ALL.
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson011907.html

I read yours now you read mine. Noam is so "passe".

The Cure

you're done

go back to sleep

where is the love?