ojai news at The Ojai Post :: blog, newspaper, events in Ojai, California

Actually, a lot of you recent arrivals are the ones who have brought the mean-spiritedness to Ojai, and most of it seemes to have arrived this past year. What you have observed thus far has not been politics as usual in Ojai, but Ojai\'s reaction to you. This is not a transient town, but a city and valley filled with long-term residents, some of whom have had family in Ojai since it was called Nordhoff. (And some since before white people ever saw this coast.)

Please do not tell me that I do not know what I am talking about, either -- I have been here all of my life, and I have never witnessed the kind of behavior in the Council chambers as I have in the past year.

As far as I can tell, many of you have moved here not with the intention of becoming part of Ojai, but with the intent of turning it into the kind of town you want it to be. You are not the first to do this, and you will not be the last.

Will you succeed? We\'ll know in a few days. You are not the first to try, and you will undoubtedly not be the last.

One thing you should know, however, is that you have made few if any friends amongst the natives -- only amongst other recent arrivals -- and amongst those have been perennially dissatisfied since the day they arrived in Ojai, no matter how long ago that was.

It\'s too bad that you never tried to make friends, and that you have never seen yourselves from the perspective of others.

Maybe you\'ll mellow with time and figure out that smiles, time, understanding, and coffee will get you a lot farther in Ojai than will pitchforks, torches, and ultimatums.

Stan I hope you're not of
CPO fame because your post is beneith you, and I call
people of your post's description turncoats or traitors. It has been a real education for me to join the political process because few here could be bothered, but more
important to watch people of this community voice
concerns about how much of an uncommon place Ojai is, as are those who chose to live here and I sure applaud Todd's willingness
to jump in on principal. I've had
many intersting exchanges,
as well as hearing from
the old guard who have probably been around for better or for worse.

If someone wanted to give you a thousand dollars, Pete, you would probably resent the gift were they to try to ram the money down your throat, and in fact you would probably not consider it a gift at all, would you?

It matters not so much what you want to do for Ojai, but how you would go about it.

And, by the way, the fact that you would call native Ojaians turncoats and traitors because they disagree with you and your personal vision for a town you share with at least 8000 other people -- or at least disagree with your tactics -- demonstrates that were you ever to become a leader, you would most likely be a totalitarian. There would be no disagreeing with you. It would be your way, or else.

That would not fly in Ojai.

OK fair enough- I sure know
the inplications of totalitarianism,we've been seeing it firsthand with
the citizen lawsuit. Would you be willing to view the candidate's forum
tapes with me Stan, because
if I come off as even remotely as you describe I
want bring it in check right now. And if I voiced
sentiment about central quality of life decisions
that generally benefit most
thoughtful souls-well you decide. Thanks for opportunity for spirited
debate- a long tradition here!

With respect to the assertion that my family’s Ojai friends are restricted to those without tenure in Ojai, I am very happy to report that this is not the case. Our many new friends in Ojai include families with familiar names and long histories in town. My wife and I are most grateful for being welcomed in such a generous way by almost all of the good people we have met.

The suggestion that care for the loss of Ojai’s landmarks is restricted to newcomers does not square with my experience to date. Many long time Ojai residents with deep roots mourned the loss of the 53 year-old Frostie. I don’t think appreciation of Ojai landmarks, traditions, and values is limited to newcomers. If anything, I think it is more deeply felt by those who have lived here far longer than we have.

Similarly, many longtime residents have expressed concern regarding the lawsuit against Jeff Furchtenicht. As the facts in this situation have suggested, had our government followed Stan’s recommended practice of understanding and coffee, this expensive and divisive lawsuit never would have happened. I agree with Stan completely that smiles, understanding, and coffee is the best approach. As I indicated in my guest editorial, prior to my arrival in Ojai, I had never touched politics. I had no agenda, merely concern for a small businessman and a local landmark that was going away. It was difficult for me to sit idly by and watch it happen. I felt I had to try to do something to save a man’s livelihood and a local landmark. I don’t feel that caring for Ojai’s treasures is a bad thing for anyone, regardless of whether they are new or familiar to Ojai.

Stan...what a mean spirited response to Todd's post! Todd does not intend to change Ojai, as you are suggesting, but to preserve what has been here for generations. Ojai is changing with or without our being here and it does not take a newcomer to notice. We have many friends here...many who encouraged us to move here in the first place! Until we attended our first city council meeting, we were completely oblivious to the tensions that existed. And let’s not forget, we attended the meeting with the belief that surely Ojai's citizens and city council members would never let a 50 year old landmark slip into oblivion. (Which it now has). We only stepped in because there seems to be an absence of voices, both new and old to safeguard what you created.

With respect to the assertion that my family’s Ojai friends are restricted to those without tenure in Ojai, I am very happy to report that this is not the case.

This town is far more tightly knit than you can see, or than you imagine. Almost everyone you know in Ojai, Meiners Oaks, Oak View, and surrounding unincorporated county areas knows at least one of the people you know. People talk, and not everyone who is willing to talk to you is necessarily on your side, even if they are friendly to you. As with most small towns, the locals play Good Cop/Bad Cop with newcomers until they know what those people are about, and those locals talk to each other after they have spoken to you. You would be mistaken were you to believe that the best networks are online.

I know for a fact that you do not know as many people as were in my graduating class at Nordhoff, most of whom still live in Ojai and/or who have family in Ojai, and that means that your self-characterization as a connected person is more wishful thinking than substance.

No one questions your right to be here -- you are as welcome to live in Ojai as is anyone else. Ojaians do not automatically hate outsiders, and were you to be willing to quit treating the majority us as if we were mostly untutored and provincial rubes, you might actually be able to shed the husk that keeps you from sliding more comfortably into more pleasant and rewarding quarters of local society.

You, as with so many of your compatriots, all sem to have gotten off of the same bus. You act as if you are part of a group of hired guns, all of whom have the same aim, and all of whom use mostly the same tactics -- and rather Rovian tactics, at that. You aim to turn us against each other rather than to work with our strengths. You wish to divide and conquer and pit against each other people who went to school together; who went to war together; who buried members of each others families; who have attended church together; who belonged to Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts together; who helped each other in times of disaster and need; who were and are godparents to each others children; who visit each other in the hospital, and who know at a glance when something is bothering one or another of us. You may have made acquaintances in Ojai, but you hve not made anywhere near as many friends as you think -- at least not in the true sense of the word \"friend\".

As to your claim, Laura, that my response to your husband was mean-spirited, all I can say is that you have extremely thin skin for a person who appears to want to blog and be politically involved. If merely taking issue with a differing viewpoint is mean-spirited, then I guess there are an awful lot of mean-spirited people here, yourself included.

As you newcomers feel that you have a right to tell thousands of people that you have the One True Answer -- something we have all heard many times before -- those of us who hear you have just as much right to tell you that we do not respect the manner in which you would bring about change, even if the change were needed.

As I said earlier, what you have witnessed in the the way of reaction has not been business as usual in Ojai, but the reaction of Ojaians to you and your tactics.

Maybe you\'ll figure out someday that if we think we need saving we will either save ourselves or ask for help, but we will do whatever we think we need to do in order to keep that help from being forced upon us by people who, as we all see, mostly just want their own needs and desires served.

Assimilate, or be forever unhappy, disenfranchised, and on the outside looking in, shaking your fists at the status quo.

The mean-spiritedness does not come from the so-called newbies. Its not the newbies who filed a lawsuit rather than engage in a simple conversation. The whole newbies v old-timers thing is a false issue. What we are seeing is a mean-spiritedness, and frankly disingenuousness, from pro-development forces that include elements of the so-called old guard and newcomers, some of whom don't even live here. As in national politics, these folks use personal attacks, lawsuits and divisiveness to change the subject. Whatever happens in this election, I for one hope we can all get beyond the false divisions afterwards.

I think Stan should realize that most "newbies" he decries come here because of what Ojai is, not because they want it to be something else. Newcomers bring the experience of living elsewhere that many old-timers don't have - experience which shows us that Ojai today is unique and one of the last of a vanishing breed. I grew up in Los Gatos, which thirty years ago was not so different from Ojai. Today, it is purely an enclave of wealth. The living town that I grew up in is dead. The charming downtown is now a facade of high-end chain stores. Artists, artisans, working people are all long gone, and the town is all "newbies" today - my generation can't afford to live there, and most of our parents sold out, both because the new Los Gatos wasn't what they moved there for many years ago, and their own kids are elsewhere. If people put their blinders on here in Ojai, it takes very little time for the same kind of permament changes to happen here. One difference between what happened to Los Gatos and what can happen in Ojai is this: today, in 2006, because we have seen it elsewhere, we know what happens when you welcome uncontrolled development and chain stores, fail to address affordability, and sit back with blinders on while your longtime independent businesses are closed by developers and your storefronts go vacant. Newbies and old-timers alike know that Ojai is special. We should be working together to keep what we have.

Dear Mighty Morphin' Power Ranger:

"Engaged progressive"? But what did you actually do? Eat Progresso soup while you wrote a check?

It is only time for you to leave Ojai if you think you are more important than the town itself and the people who were already here when you arrived.

Ojai Bjorn

Stan,

Thank you for your feedback. I do agree that it is unlikely that I know as many people from your graduating class at Nordhoff as you do. I would like to take your advice and invite you for coffee to begin the process of understanding that you recommend.

I am laughing at Stan's post...his last line says "Assimilate, or be forever unhappy, disenfranchised, and on the outside looking in, shaking your fists at the status quo."

Reminds me of a sci fi show I watched once...a Star Trek episode where an nasty alien group called the Borg had a party line for humans and any other race of sentient beings they encountered in the universe. It was "You will be assimilated...Resistance is futile." It was the Borg's mission in life to assimilate all other cultures and life forms into their collective group. They were all the same with no individual thoughts or personality and lived soley for the good of the collective. They were called Drones, for obvious reasons. Fun fantasy to enjoy on TV, but not one I want to experience!

Stan, join us for a cup of coffee...you will see we are not angry, nor shaking our fists. We'll even buy.

Jeff, I believe that you either have no real perspective or your words are merely tactical.

You, like Todd, assume that none of us have ever been
beyond the confines of the North American continent, the State of California, the County of Ventura, or even the City of Ojai. You assume that none of us have ever had careers that forced us to travel and be the identified newbies almost everywhere we went. It is a careless assumption that you have made.

You come here so much wiser than any of us could ever be, in your opinion, and you imagine most of us to be narrow-minded and uneducated mouth-breathers. I do not know whether to attempt to correct your perception of us, because it seems to me that were you to continue to underestimate us to the extent you have so far you would be doing yourself a great disservice and us a great favor.

Perhaps time will tell whether or not the required majority of the words you speak are true, and not -- as you accuse the locals of being, disingenuous -- but as it stands you have alienated far more people than you have gathered.

Claiming that you are here to save Ojai does not buy you much of value with people who have neither needed nor wanted outsiders to solve their problems for them. Yes, it was sad that Ojai Frostie closed, and I will miss eating there. They made good tortas -- the best in town. I loved their fries -- they would overcook them for you a little if you asked them. I loved watching the kids hang out there after school and I loved remembering when it was me and my friends. I loved the Ojai-ness of the place, and I hope that it reopens in a similar good location.

Things change, though, and Ojai Frostie is not the first business -- or hamburger stand -- to go under, and it won\'t be the last. I have lost a lot of favorite haunts over the years. I will lose more, and then I will die. That\'s life. Sooner or later, we all lose every person, place, and thing we ever loved, and then everybody loses us. In some cases, it is good to work to prevent untimely loss, and I have done that much of my life with regard to many of the wild places I have --sometimes barely -- known and loved. Sometimes, I was rewarded, and sometimes I grieved. There are places I can no longer visit because of that grief, and I choose to remember things the way they were the last good time that I saw them.

One thing I never did, however, in my attempt to save anything was attack a family, and you and many of your friends have attacked the family that is Ojai. You have vilified our friends and cast them and their motives in the worst light possible in order to win a seat or two on the Council. As I said before, Rovian politics have been brought to a most un-Rovian town, and the alleged gift is highly resented.

You, much like people who work for the dirty tricks arms of national political organizations, seem to have sought to create division between groups of people, some of whom have known each other longer than you have lived on Earth.

You have never really understood this town you claim to love, because you have never really understood the people. I am not saying that you cannot ever understand the people, but to date you have not.

Laura, the concept of assimilation existed long before anyone ever crafted the concept of the Borg Civilization.

If you want to remain apart, no one will force you to blend. But you will never have what you say you seek until you lose the confrontational attitude. You will merely have more interactions with more confrontationalists.

We will not, BTW, be having coffee together. At least if we do, you won\'t know that it is happening.

I will meet you at such time as I think you have localized and settled in a bit more, assuming that ever happens.

PS:

It is a nice day. I\'m going for a walk at McGrath Beach.

Great way to spend the day! Enjoy your walk. see you around!

Hi Stan - great to have you participate - your perspective is highly valued. Might I ask, what is the point at which newbies/recent arrivals become long-term residents/old-timers? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

Might I ask, what is the point at which newbies/recent arrivals become long-term residents/old-timers? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

Tyler -

Yes. Any of the above. Or, alternately; one week. Or one month. Maybe one day. How much do you really care for the place?

When you and every other sincere newcomer (and, sadly, not a few old-timers) can finally defend the town without attacking the people, you will be worth far more than the town could ever afford to buy.

That you have ever witnessed anyone else here doing anything less is not a good reason to do anything less yourself.

Is it?

One more thing, If I may:

There have been a few things I\'ve wanted to say, and I\'ve said them. More than that, however, I would hope that perhaps a few more people from my side of the street would see fit to comment here and maybe start trying to move things back to the center where we can all look at them.

As I said, you might not have as many friends here as you would like others to believe, but you might also have more friends than you know.

Stan, for someone who has never met me, you sure presume alot about what I assume, think, feel, understand, etc. If you did accept an invitation for coffee, whether from Todd, Laura, or me, you might find just the opposite of what you are presuming. Until you accept that invitation, where are you getting your information? A "second sense"? I can tell you that every one of the assumptions/perceptions you attribute to me is simply false. I would not have moved to Ojai if I thought any of those things about the people who live here. I and my family have moved here - as anyone who as ever spoken to me will tell you - because we have found in Ojai just the opposite.

Stan, what you are peddling is false fear, false division and a false hate. It might be part of Ojai, as in any community, but it is an ugly part, and not one to champion. It is so telling when you refuse an invitation for coffee, after creating your whole vast fabrication of some monolithic newcomer-as-enemy. Its almost as if you know that if you actually met Todd, or Laura, or me for that matter, that your whole edifice of any of us as enemy would crumble.

Meanwhile, you accuse, but who have I attacked? Is defending myself against a meritless lawsuit somehow me attacking someone?

I didn't file the lawsuit; I did everything in my power to seek dialogue and avoid a lawsuit (and I still am); and the city's response was much like yours: go crawl into a hole and never come out, we will never talk with you, we will never meet you for coffee, we will say bad things behind your back while smiling to you on the street, and we'll spend the city into the ground in a bogus lawsuit until either we're dead or you are. For what? Because I proposed some initiatives, which are not even a live issue, which sought to address issues that every city council candidate has said are important. Come on Stan. You should be as appalled by what the city is doing as is every other reasonable person in and out of Ojai.

The reality is, the Ojai you describe, of false smiles, lies behind the back, exclusion, and fear, is not an Ojai that I think exists except perhaps in the beleaguered imaginations of a few poor souls. Perhaps some of these poor souls are on your cocktail circuit, but let me pose something: why not elevate Ojai, and yourself, by not impugning the motives and integrity of people who you refuse to even meet?

We might just be a better town for it.

my gratitude goes to everyone who is participating here!

an observation: the war-friendly world in which we live has many defining characteristics, one of which is an oversimplified language which uses us/them constructions to separate and divide people. i'm hesitant to single anyone out for fear of attracting some personal "friendly fire", but my reading of this post shows our friend and neighbor Stan using most of this language, even mentioning his "side of the street".

my belief is that as long as we continue seeing our world in that way, we will continue to have war. and what we have here, expressed on the local level, is war.

the wisdom of the ages is on the side of greater cooperation and peace. and since there seems to be a deep respect for the classic and the traditional here in Ojai, perhaps these words will have some weight:

"Seek first to understand, THEN to be understood."

"We must be the change we wish to see in the world."

there are, of course, many others. i dont know the speaker of the first, but the second is from Gandhi. but i think that if we tempered our concerns with thoughts like these - all of us; those that have been here most or all of our lives and those that are newly finding our Ojai experience - our common ground will be much easier to see, and we can move forward together that much sooner.

I too am somewhat distrustful of "newbies" arriving on a daily basis in town. Quite frankly, my discomfort results from years of witnessing attitudes and behaviours that Stan refers to. Honestly, some of these people are beyond belief - displaying rudeness, arrogance, selfishness and total lack of respect for this town and the opinions and concerns of those of us who have been here for ages. My wish is that these posts stay positive so I won't allow myself to further veer off into my thoughts about these "elements" - we all know the type... Most likely they will continue to be given the cold shoulder and will hopefully move on.

That being said, I do not see any of the same qualities in the majority of those on this site. Most (like Jeff) are intelligent, civil and have, what I feel, are this town's best interests at heart. I encourage them to continue!

Many of us who have been here for ages haven't gotten involved enough in local politics or, worse, really have no idea of the machinations that go on behind closed council doors. We continue to live our lives blissfully thinking Ojai will be, well...Ojai...forever. (Haven't we all thought for years that no chains were supposed to come to downtown Ojai? Or ugly, over-sized, out of place, badly-built monstrosities? Didn't we think that we citizens had some say in what happens to our town?) I think we have seen in recent months that we have had blinders on. And to Jeff, Cathy and others who are taking a stand (at personal risk to themselves) - I say you have my support. To force the council into some sort of practise of transparency, at least. At best, they and those like them (smart, cabable, gutsy and willing) can hopefully steer Ojai back in the direction that I, and many like me, thought she was going.

Stan, I encourage you to go have that cup of coffee! (But please - not at Starbucks???)

When you and every other sincere newcomer (and, sadly, not a few old-timers) can finally defend the town without attacking the people, you will be worth far more than the town could ever afford to buy.

Stan -

Might I ask in which group you are placing me?

Am I a "sincere newcomer" because I have attacked someone (not sure who that might be), or have I graduated? What might be said of those who don't attack, and yet don't defend what Ojai is?

Very intrigued to continue the discussion along the grey areas, or does everyone participating on this site, indeed everyone living in Ojai, fit in one box or another?

Jeff, you continue on the offensive, and you continue to provide a better demonstation of the behavior I was describing than I possibly could describe without being downright insulting.

This is not a board game, and it is not a courtroom. You are being judged in the court of public opinion, whether you like it or not.

You seem to have a need to win at all costs, and you also seem to have a need to be in control. 99 cent store Psych 101, I know, but I stick by my very first impression of you when I met you at your coffee sales & political diatribe table at the Farmers Market: you did not come to Ojai as much to help the town as you did in order to be a force to contend with. Conquer and rule first, help later, right?

I have seen so many people like you in Ojai over the years. You are certainly not the worst, but you are one of the most confrontational and abrasive and you are also one of the most out of touch. (The worst one, in my mind, was a former owner/publisher of the OVN who claimed to have been a Colonel in the Army and who alluded to heroic wartime behavior. He was neither a Colonel, nor was he a wartime hero. He was, however, going to fix everything that was wrong with this jerkwater hamlet that he praised and denigrated in practically the same sentence and in the same breath.)

When you can defend the town, as you claim you want to do, without attacking the people, you might eventually get some traction, but not until then.

Your refusal to believe that this town is as I have described it says a lot about your powers of perception and your ability to accurately asess your surroundings. Perhaps you are lucky that you are not a trial lawyer.

Believe what you will, Jeff, but the truth does not care whether you believe in it or not. It remains the truth; change your tactics, change your luck.

Oldtime Ojai Resident:

I am not distrustful of newbies. I am distrustful of SOME newby attitudes.

I also know that if they just sit back and watch and start to lose the Big World attitude, they will probably see Ojai through different eyes.

This is not L.A. It is not New York. It is not even Santa Barbara. Newbies might do well to devote a bit more time to breathing deeply and decompressing a bit before they attempt to engage people in combat, especially when no combat is required.

Stan -

Might I ask in which group you are placing me?

Tyler, I am not placing you in any category -- I just see, and cannot help but see, which category you are placing yourself in each day, each week, each month, and each year.

When I finished reading everything there was to be read at Zaadz, I must admit that I had a different image of you than the one I\'d started with.

Amen, Long Time Ojai Resident, any place but Starbucks.

Stan,
As a 5th generation Californian, and a 3rd generation Ojaian, do I have enough tenure here in Ojai to say that your assertion is incorrect and that "newbies" and "old guard" alike are working together to solve some tough issues facing Ojai? We invite you to join us. Let's not make this an issue of who's been here the longest. This town isn't organized by rank and pecking order, but rather by people's interest in the community and the politics that surround it. Like you, I believe in civility and kindness and smiles and coffee. Would you like to meet for a cup?

Just want to make sure I understand what the ground rules appear to be. Unless you were born here, and approve of the status quo--you are not a true Ojai citizen. If you feel that the city council is unresponsive in the extreme--If you feel that it's wrong for the city attorney to use a SLAPP suit against a person living in Ojai (apparently also not a Real Ojai citizen), then you are a "newbie" and an outsider. Is that correct.

I'll tell this story because I've been here in Ojai for a decade now. I was having one of those people-centered network things Stan was talking about in the store one day. Just listening to two Real Ojai Citizens(ROCs) talking about growing up in town and other things. See, I like eavesdropping in line and according to Stan i'm still classified as a "newbie" so it's the only I can participate in the ROCnetwork. I'm in line and they are right next to me so I can hear what they were saying. The line was a bit long, maybe 8 people deep. I'm just waiting and listening as the two ROCs start complaining about how slow the checker is (also a ROC) and how it would all be so much better if they(the ominous uber-THEY) just put a Wal*Mart in that field on the way out of town. Maybe they're right. Maybe we should all just give up on trying to keep what we "newbies" see as the charm and history of this town. Screw it, let's just give up. Southern California needs another Camirillo, Thousand Oaks, Agoura Hills, Oak Park, Westlake Village, Moorpark, Simi Valley, Calabasas, Santa Clarita, Encino, Valley Village, Sherman Oaks, Panorama City, Porter Ranch, Tarzana, Granada Hills, Northridge, Van Nuys, Woodland Hills. Uh... on second thought maybe not.

Hi Stan and Ojai Bjorn:

I would be interested to know your positions on chain stores, affordable housing in Ojai, and the other issues everyone's been discussing of late. Wouldn't it be a shame (and a waste of time and energy) if we all felt similarly on the issues that started these threads in the first place and were prevented from coming together (and making a difference) because of our varying lengths of residency here in Ojai.

Good comment!

This is a great example of my problem with certain Ojai residents.
That is: They get so involved with unimportant issues that they completely miss what is serious. It's almost as if certain people just don't know much and so they fabricate talking points to feel in control of something. I'm assuming this to be the case with "Stan" because I couldn't otherwise understand why someone could seriously claim to have followed this current city lawsuit and Frostie but then complain that the opponents are "mean?"

Are you kidding me?
Have you honestly looked into the issues regarding the lawsuit against Jeff?

If you did you would clearly see that what the city has done is illegal and highly antidemocratic.

I'm sorry to be mean Stan but you have to keep your eye on the ball here because there are some serious issues and things that are going down in this town. Talking about mean spirited people and length of stay from residents is like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

By the way I was born and raised here and I don’t think myself or my friends know you. With that said it’s very possible that you have overestimated the size of your “circle.”

Tyler, I am not placing you in any category -- I just see, and cannot help but see, which category you are placing yourself in each day, each week, each month, and each year.

Stan, perhaps you can elaborate a bit on the category you see me placing myself in.

Obviously, in founding The Ojai Post, I am disrupting the status quo and change is difficult for some people. But not everyone's views on the Post reflect my own, and I love that, just like I love that about Ojai as a community.

If The Ojai Post didn't provide this forum for our citizens, and host documents and media such as the ballot initiatives and correspondence, the Cathy Elliott Jones arrest video, or extensive up-to-the-minute Day Fire coverage, then who would? How would all of the anger and confrontation that has been building manifest? Because let's be very clear here: it would exist with or without the Post - we simply have the ability to bring it to the light of day in a way that no other media outlet can.

My expertise and contribution to the Ojai community is in the online world. Perhaps you might find value in such free sites as this one, or OjaiEvents.com, OjaiNetwork.com, OjaiRestaurants.com, OjaiGarden.com, OjaiHealers.com or OjaiJobs.com. Heck, I might even have a few more up my sleeve.

I am very comfortable in my category. I'm glad you can visit and participate just as I am glad to welcome, host and honor all the other newbies and old-timers alike on The Ojai Post.

I have a feeling that we all agree on most of the issues at hand, but that we still have strong disagreement on the issue of tactics. I\'m guessing In that\'s not going to change much, either. So, perhaps we can work with what we have.

Just to clarify, I do not resent newcomers, and I do not think that you have to have any kind of local seniority in order to point out problems or act upon those problems. What I do see, however, is that newcomers frequently tend to have much different manners than locals, and that they do not understand why certain people do not see the value in their observations, and they thrash around loudly in protest without being willing to look at themselves in the same way they would have others commit to some serious self-examination

Picture this: You are at your favorite coffee shop with a group of friends. You\'ve all been around town for awhile, and you feel quite comfortable at that coffee shop. You are discussing a local problem with your companions, and generally having a good time. As friends, you frequently disagree, but you never aim to injure. The argument is spirited, and there is nothing even closely approaching concensus at your table. Suddenly, a loud voice rings out from a nearby table, and you turn to see a stranger heading toward you. He is talking as he approaches, and he is telling you that you are all wrong, that you have no idea what you are talking about, that you are the cause of all that is wrong with the town, that you are essentially evil and/or ignorant, that you have been drinking poisoned Kool-Aid and do not the sense to stop, and that you should all be routed like vermin and sent out of town wearing tar and feathers.

Here are three questions: What is your impression of this man, how do you feel about him, and how will you react to him?

Duffy, in response to you -- briefly -- you are about 23, I\'d guess, and there really is no good reason for you to know me personally, although I know for a fact that you and I have mutual acquaintances.

I see this town fracturing and coming apart, and that,far more than the relatively meager construction that has taken place in the past decade -- whether you like it or hate it -- is what kills towns, destroys families, and lays waste to all of the good we have ever done and ever might do. If we cannot find a way to solve our problems without eating our young and laying to waste the good feeling we all say we want, then if there really are wolves at the door there will be no one to stop them from coming on in and helping themselves.

If someone has it in mind to destroy the Ojai that we all know and love, they would first sow as much dissension as possible, and set people at each others throats. If you think that this is not what the Red State/Blue State paradigm was all about, you are wrong. Let us divide America and Americans. It seems to have worked, although I am fervently wishing for an end to that artificial dichotomy,and I personally hope that things will change for the better in Congress after this election, and that perhaps we can quit acting as have the Bush Administration has, proceeding as if insult and ridicule were the way to uplift the Democrat opponent from his or her wallow of stupidity.
(Does it work for you? If someone calls you stupid, do you work to please them and get better.)

I am sorry if I have made anyone here feel as if I was being a snob, because I\'m not. The ONLY thing I care about with regard to others is how they treat me, and how they treat others. I do not care about anything else. Really.

In truth, do you really care about anything else?

In society, as on this blog, if you treat others no worse than you would be willing to be treated by them, I do not think that there are any other problems that cannot be solved.

Call me a patsy and/or a concern troll, but that is what I believe.

I\'m gone until Wednesday. I hope that things go well for us all. I know that I tend to go on as long as Dennis, but I\'ll knock it off.

BTW, I\'m still disappointed that none of my friends want to join in here, and I hope that they change their minds. New perspectives are a good thing, I think.

Stan, I notice you avoid giving direct answers to questions people ask you, but you have no problem teeing off on others when they post their point of view. You also contradict yourself right and left.

I am sorry that the stranger you mention verbally attacked you like that. But that is no reason to "pass it on" to us. We are not that person and you are obvioulsy lumping us into a convenient category you have created to justify your ill will and make yourself "right."

You contribute a lot of general and conceptual dialogue, but never answer any specific questions. Why not?

We truly want to hear your view on the issues everyone else here boldly discusses and the solutions they offer.

Stan - I think I hear what you're saying and, believe-it-or-not, I think there is more than a little common ground among all of us. I understand that you're not comfortable with that cuppa joe just yet, but the offer is open. Let me know if you'd like to get together sometime. Perhaps there is an opportunity to make some new friends here in this great town that is obviously very important to you.

Well stated Todd. Count me in on that cuppa joe and some open and productive dialogue should it come to fruition.

i'm in for coffee too. not only is this shaping up to be a gathering of interesting and passionate people, but if coffee be the first sip toward greater community, dialogue, understanding, and peace, then i'm all in, every time.

This is great! Let's do coffee! What days/times are especially good or bad for everyone? Is the Roaster ok or does anyone have another preference? This could be the start of something really great, or maybe it's just an opportunity to make some new friends - either way, a good thing.

I'm in. Might I offer that unlike the elections and the city council, The Ojai Post is a reflection of the entire Ojai Valley. So perhaps we may want to consider a location that's more central such as Stir Crazy, which also has more room and free wifi.

I'm heartened to see that this virtual gathering is growing each day and now is about to connect in the real world. A real grassroots beginning in the making. And meeting at Stir Crazy would be extremely symbolic as I'm sure they have taken a hit due to Starbucks!

I just discovered this thread, and find it interesting and valuable, a "virtual" correspondence to the "physical" Candidates Forum, Nov. 4th. I think meeting at Stir Crazy would be great. Farmer and the Cook would also work for me. I don't drink coffee. Suggest a time. Direct Democracy is exciting. We've started something; let's keep up the momentum. Meeting here is great, and meeting in person is better. I'd love to meet Stan in person, and "anonymous #1, #2," etc.

I'm learning a lot here, in the political arena, and in the Ojai Valley generally. This place has been very good for my physical, mental and spiritual health, in part because of the conflicts which are coming to the surface, conflicts which mirror my own; and take place in a supportive community. Repression and denial are the obstacles to be overcome, as far as I'm concerned. I'm 66, and feel young again, because I'm growing, meeting people who also are growing politically, and in other ways.

The title of this Post is "Ground Zero," started by Todd Miller. I've felt that Ojai is a microcosm of the world, and in that sense, ground zero. Maybe that's what landed me here. I want to be where the action is, where the juice is. What got me here was a case of injustice, whereby we lost our house in Ventura, and most of our money. That experience helped me to be sensitive to injustice and lack of truth. As a microcosm, Ojai has a dark side which is the seamy side of her beautiful tapestry. Actually, the really expensive and quality Persian rugs have a seamy side that is almost indistigushable from the good side. That's balance.
By dealing with the dark side, and balancing it with the good side, Ojai's tapestry becomes more and more valuable and exquisite.

I am a newcomer, but so is Jere Kersnar. I started visting here five or six years ago when my son was attending the Valley Oak Charter school; and as a visitor, as well as a newcomer, I have a stake in Ojai, since that category pays most of Ojai's bills. Todd Miller is another newcomer, and I appreciate his demonstrated love for Frostie. Frostie is one of those "touchstones" Mr. Kersnar refers to. I think it is perfectly legitimate to critize the present administration for failing Frostie. That is bad enough, but its tactics were dishonest and unethical. I've got extensive evidence to back this statement up, which would be fitting to share with those interested, in an informal setting like Stir Crazy, where real people can let their guard and hair down. It is the present power structure which has "attacked" people like those who were supporting themselves and the city through the small business of Frostie; in addition to several other areas where the present power complex has attacked democratic values. To call them on their "attacks" is not personal, nor should they take it personally, unless the shoe fits, nor should they try to disempower their opposition by projecting their hidden attacks onto outsiders who, in their words, are "attacking" them. Legitimate criticism is only an "attack" in the paranoid mindset and/or in the power gameset.

I try mightily to avoid right-wrong languaging and military "attack" mode spin. I use disclaimers to distingush persons from impersonal issues. However, these attempts to walk the high ground are tenuous, because all of us have deeply embedded genes of fighting from millenia of evolution, which cannot simply be ignored, even in language. We are evolving toward "homo sapiens," but are no means there yet.

I wish there were more people like Stan and Leland to voice opposing points of view. That is growth producing. To their credit, Carol Smith and Steven Olson showed up at the People's Forum; Joe DeVito did not. To my mind, he is symbolic of the old guard who are uncomfortable with free and open exchange. A forum like the Ojai Post attracts newcomer types because it is new. Stan appears to be a person of long standing community ties, with a liberal education, who is also comfortable with the new technology of communication, represented by the Ojai Post.

I am 66 years old, educated in a classical tradition. I am not comfortable with the new technology, and in many respects, dislike it. My thirteen year old son, on the other hand, loves the new, but sadly, lacks grounding in the old traditions. I like Ojai because it is both old and new. Without new blood, the old contracts into a power complex of defense. Without the old, newcomers become marginalized and ineffective.

I'm going to go vote shortly. I will vote for the new, but I have no intention of getting rid of the old. I'm old myself, and have a great respect for tradition. It's in my blood. I intend to stay in Ojai, and put down roots, and keep participating. I don't know of any other place that has so many of the things I value, like Ojai has. I may move, if Ojai becomes unlivable or unaffordable for me. So far, she has been most hospitable. What our relationship will become remains to be seen.

Tyler, I'm glad you mentioned that space here is not finite, because I tend to go on overmuch. Like my mother used to say, the Irish have the gift of gab. Fortunately, in a venue like this, you don't have to listen to boring egotists. Maybe, I just like to hear myself speak. Perhaps there's some value in that, like learning what not to do. The Ojai Post is much more interesting than the mainstream or alternative media. To the old guard, with the possible exception of Stan, and other silent spectators, this type of talk is boring "blah," and "TMI." When I reread my stuff, I tend to agree. I do get tired of hearing myself talk. I'd much rather hear the juicy stuff, while keeping one ear open for the solid rational analysis. See ya at the Stir Crazy, or some other crazy stirring place, sometime. Got to go vote.

since it's Election Day, i'm going to cast my vote for Stir Crazy as well. but i'm ALSO very fond of Coffee Connection in Meiners Oaks. it's tiny, but John is good people and it's the only place in the Valley (i know, i've been to all of them today handing out flyers for the Black Gold documentary coming to the Playhouse on the 18th) that actually has the words "fair trade" on the window. perhaps some smaller follow-up meetings could support that little gem as well.

no better days than others for me...just all good, busy ones. whomever made the original offer, just set a time and whomever's there is there.

Thinking that perhaps I was losing perspective by spending too much time on this particular website, I have just gone back and re-read the April OVN blog about chains coming into Ojai. Most who wrote in vehemently oppose the idea. I would venture a guess that a good portion of those people are long-term members of the communuity. It gives me hope that (as I expected) a majority of us (from both sides of the fence, so to speak) are united at least on this issue. In my opinion all forces need to come together to address this situation - or forever lose Ojai as we know it. One thought - if the problem can't be nipped in the bud at City Hall, then the chains and franchises (and the property owners who rent space to them) can be made FULLY aware that a good old fashioned boycott is what they can look forward to. Organization, mobilization, passion and the ability from all who feel strongly about this issue to "put our money where our mouths are" is all that's needed.

okay, i'm gonna put a meeting-time out there and see how it flies:
how bout saturday november the 18th, either before or after the Ojai Playhouse's screening of "Black Gold", which is a documentary about Fair Trade coffee? the film screens at 4:30pm, so what if some of us meet to chat at either 3:00 or 7:00?

i've emailed Jody over at Stir Crazy to let her know about our discussion and this beautiful resolution that is just blooming, so perhaps she'll have something to say soon...

Thanks for proposing a date/time Evan. "Black Gold" sounds like the perfect theme. Saturday the 18th at Stir Crazy is good for me. My personal preference is 3PM, but I can get together at either time.

3pm on November 18 is my preference. Once we have some input from our readers, we'll move this to the front page of the Post, and list it on OjaiEvents.com as well. Thanks Todd and evan for moving this forward.

I'll go. Unfortunately, 7pm is better for me and I can go to Stir Crazy, but I can easily ride over to Coffee Connection and I really like fair trade.

Stir Crazy
November 18th
3pm

I'll need a table for 6 please.

3 PM, or 7 PM on Nov. 18 works for me, at any of the venues mentioned. Looking forward to it. --Dennis Leary

evan - perhaps you can touch base with Todd, and once there is some consensus, post this as a new post on the homepage. Also, I'll publicize it on OjaiEvents.com and OjaiBlog.com

I might drop by, but I truly enjoy just being a fly on the wall most of the time.

As far as the election results, I think I could have taken just about anything else that happened as long as Richard Pombo got tossed out and Prop. 90 got trashed. I got more than I possibly could have hoped for, though.

Glad to see that the rhetoric has become a bit more humane around here; it makes it a much nicer place to lurk.

thanks, Tyler...

Todd, et al,
sounds like 3pm on Saturday the 18th at Stir Crazy works for enough of us that we can call it, huh? i'll make a new post...

Stan, we share many values...it you feel comfortable doing so, we'd love to have you stop by. methinks you wont even have to pay for your own coffee...

3pm on Saturday the 18th at Stir Crazy sounds like a plan. I add my good wishes to Stan and hope that he'll stop by. If not, we'll hoist a cup in his honor.

Thanks, Todd. Drink a cup or 3 for me.

BTW, Jody James is a native, and if you know her then you know one of the Ojaians whom I admire the most.

I have never heard Jody rag on anyone, and she does not hate newcomers. If you were brand new to Ojai and you asked me to introduce you to one of the 10 people I admired the most, Jody would be in my top 3. She is one of the hardest working people I have ever known in my life, and if it weren't for her there would probably be no Ojai Day. (Why not ask her if you can help her next year?)